Author Topic: Automotive AC Experiment --  (Read 11390 times)

Offline goodfellow

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment -- This one is a failure!!
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2015, 12:46:40 AM »
My boss and I were discussing this last week. He's got an old Pontiac that we're gonna try to get his AC working again using the dust off. The 100+ degree days we've been having have convinced him he needs AC in the old heap so we're gonna try this out. thumbsup2

Good luck! -- post up the results please --

Offline goodfellow

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2015, 10:31:11 PM »
Here is an excerpt from a website that has some very good info on the refrigerant situation. It also points out the logical flaws with regard to the environmental laws that are currently in place. For instance -- Some Air Duster cans use R134a as a propellant -- which is freely vented into the air when used as directed, yet there is no EPA penalty for this venting. On the other hand if one vents R134a from an automotive AC system; it's considered an Environmental Hazard under penalty of law.

Doing my research, I have concluded that the EPA and most of the government regulations are nothing more than a sham system designed to take control away from individuals and place it in the control of large corporations and government bureaucrats.

You decide for yourself!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/339271-quest-100-percent-diy-c-setup.html

What About Other Refrigerants?

There are literally scores of refrigerants. An interested reader is directed to this page for a partial list -

In fact, the types of refrigerants is myriad - CFC, CFO, HCFC, HCFO, HFC, HFO, HCC, HCO, HC, HO, PFC, PFO, PFC, PFO, PCC, PCO and H among others.

Not all, in fact most, refrigerants are not appropriate for automotive use - either because of physical attributes or because of undesirable characteristics or because of cost.

But there are some fascinating alternatives to R12 and R134a that can be used with varying degrees of legality and desirability and effectiveness.

Making no value judgements, recommendations or assertions, the reader is directed to the following options as interesting subjects for research and consideration.


R-290 (Propane) - Propane is a refrigerant that is cheap, highly efficient and easily used within automotive system. Persons considering propane are cautioned against using propane fuel that is readily available in camping bottles or in heating cannisters or as vehicle fuel. This "propane" is quite impure with water and other hydrocarbons present in significant concentrations that can seriously degrade AC systems. Refrigerant grade propane should be used if this is considered. Propane can be vented so no recovery issues exist.

EnviroSafe (propane/isobutane) - EnviroSafe is a proprietary mix of hydrocarbons that is optimized for automotive use. It is legal for conversion from 134a systems but not from R12 systems. This is a legal technicality not grounded in any practical or physical reality. Some say that an R12 system that has been converted to 134a can be legally converted. Envirosafe can be vented so no recovery issues exist. While not legal, EnvoroSafe is entirely compatible to be added to an existing R-12 or R-134a system (topping off).

DuraCool (propane/isobutane??) - DuraCool is a proprietary refrigerant predomanintly or entirely hydrocarbon based. DuraCool can be vented so no recovery issues exist.

R-152a (1,1-Difluroethane) - This is a fascinating material that is a potential replacement for 134a when that is ultimately phased out. Amazingly, this product is what is contained in dusters as well. In fact a quick YouTube search for "Duster as Refrigerant" will yield some fascinating videos about how to charge an A/C system with duster propellant. R-152 has one undesirable characteristic and that is if it does catch fire, the byproduct is HF a very poisionous acid gas that is quite nasty. Future systems will likely be double loop systems that can keep the R-152a outside the cabin.

R-1234yf (2,3,3,3-Tetrafluoropropene) - Another potential replacement for R134a. There are some undesirable properties of this refrigerant that have caused MB to have come out against adopting this refrigerant.

R-600a (butane) - Like propane, butane is a good refrigerant option. Can be vented so no recovery issues exist. Some modification to the system may be necessary because of pressure differences.

R-414a (mixture of HCFCs) - Brands such as GHG-X4, Autofrost, Chill-It

R-414b (mixture of HCFCs) - Brands inlcude HotShot, KarKool

Freeze 12 (mixture of 134a and R-142) - Freeze 12 is one of many 134a blends

Offline goodfellow

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2015, 10:59:39 PM »
Today was 92F -- high humidity. I made it a point to drive this beat up old truck all day -- the vent temps never were above 42-44F. This is by far cooler than my new R134a AC system that I put in my Rodeo last year. Those Rodeo vent temps were at 47-50F today.

Offline Altec

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2015, 08:29:21 PM »
Incidentally I was testing a 2011 Impala Police Package A/C today, and was getting 42* air.  lolx
"Play stupid games, you get stupid prizes."JJ

Offline fatfillup

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2015, 08:14:06 AM »
Incidentally I was testing a 2011 Impala Police Package A/C today, and was getting 42* air.  lolx

Holy crap,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I can see Altec test driving a cop car after repairing it. panicx  Pulling his buddies over,,,,,,,,,burnouts and such :D
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Offline K5blazer83

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2015, 08:52:15 AM »
Incidentally I was testing a 2011 Impala Police Package A/C today, and was getting 42* air.  lolx

Holy crap,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I can see Altec test driving a cop car after repairing it. panicx  Pulling his buddies over,,,,,,,,,burnouts and such :D

Altec is THAT guy  ;D
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Offline Altec

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2015, 12:21:20 PM »
I am given permission to drive in similar manor as officers to test the vehicles.
"Play stupid games, you get stupid prizes."JJ

Offline TWX

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2015, 04:15:56 PM »
I am given permission to drive in similar manor as officers to test the vehicles.

Please-don't-PIT-anyone-please-don't-PIT-anyone-please-don't-PIT-anyone

Offline mrchuck

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2015, 04:42:07 PM »
Many "patrol cars" today have an inside camera in them and show both the "perp" in the back seat, AND also the front seat!!!!
The Dallas PD has them and have caught some of the mechanics in the motor pool doing things they shouldn't of been doing. Also caught officers "interviewing" street walkers in the front seat".
And that my friends,,,, is very difficult to defend and/or refute.
cannot suffer fools happily.
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Offline Altec

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2015, 04:50:35 PM »
TWX- You mean don't pit you?  lolx

Chuck- Frankly, our county is so fiscally irresponsible they could not afford such equipment if they tried. And when they do get a couple dollars extra, they waste it on tag readers...
"Play stupid games, you get stupid prizes."JJ

Offline fatfillup

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2015, 05:53:42 PM »
I can see Altec pitting someone :)) 


Altec, you work for AA county or Calvert?
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Offline Uncle Buck

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2015, 08:15:54 PM »
We use to have the old retired Crown Victoria's the Kansas Hiway Patrol replaced when I worked for the state. I loved those cars. When they gave them to us they removed all the markings, whip antennas  push bars, spotlights and light bars but they did not de tune them so they would still fly low if you stomped on it. I loved the rate of acceleration, feeling of total stability north of 100 and the positive brakes with no fade when you shut them down.

In fact, I loved them so much that after my first few months on the job I had to make myself set the cruise control as soon as I got the car up on the highway and at highway speed. If I didn't the temptation to open them up was too great and I am sure would have likely cost me my job if I had not started putting them on cruise. Those cars handled phenomenally for big cars too. 
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Offline bonneyman

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2015, 10:16:59 PM »
Here is an excerpt from a website that has some very good info on the refrigerant situation. It also points out the logical flaws with regard to the environmental laws that are currently in place. For instance -- Some Air Duster cans use R134a as a propellant -- which is freely vented into the air when used as directed, yet there is no EPA penalty for this venting. On the other hand if one vents R134a from an automotive AC system; it's considered an Environmental Hazard under penalty of law.

Doing my research, I have concluded that the EPA and most of the government regulations are nothing more than a sham system designed to take control away from individuals and place it in the control of large corporations and government bureaucrats.

You decide for yourself!
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

R-152a (1,1-Difluroethane) - This is a fascinating material that is a potential replacement for 134a when that is ultimately phased out. Amazingly, this product is what is contained in dusters as well. In fact a quick YouTube search for "Duster as Refrigerant" will yield some fascinating videos about how to charge an A/C system with duster propellant. R-152 has one undesirable characteristic and that is if it does catch fire, the byproduct is HF a very poisionous acid gas that is quite nasty. Future systems will likely be double loop systems that can keep the R-152a outside the cabin.


Bingo! You hit the nail on the head!
The ozone depletion/global warming/climate change baloney is about control and money - nothing else.

Oh, and about the double loop idea? Already been done - with ammonia back in the 20's and 30's. Ammonia is a great refrigerant, but has some of the same "bad" qualities (toxic, corrosive, flammable), so, they used ammonia to chill water which was circulated thru the evap coils.

Offline mrchuck

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2015, 10:00:21 AM »
Ahhh yes, the "pit" maneuver.

Our Agency sent us to the Academy periodically for brush-up training.
To pass, one had to successfully do a felony car stop using a pit maneuver.
I was an instructor.
Done right, it is a wonderful technique.
However it does take practice to do it correctly.
Most who graduate do not use it, as the need does not come up repeatedly.
I see the chases on tv like everyone else, and have to hold back my comments as my wife gives me a look I do not like.
cannot suffer fools happily.
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Offline goodfellow

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Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2016, 04:07:54 PM »
Just an update on this experiment. I left the refrigerant in the truck AC system all winter long and didn't really use the truck very much until last week when my Rodeo was being repaired. Long story short, it was really hot and humid (mid-90's) during those days and I used to truck to make salvage yard runs. The AC worked flawlessly. The AC system has remained cooler and more efficient than I ever expected. It definitely rivals the old R12 system.

For an old truck with a 28 year old R12 AC system, this was the way to go. I'm leaving this installed and calling it a success. It has lasted over a year and there have been no problems with this install. With full fan blast at idle I'm getting 42F at the vents -- with outside ambient air temps in the high 90's.

The Garage Gazette

Re: Automotive AC Experiment --
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2016, 04:07:54 PM »