Author Topic: What happened to factory paint jobs?  (Read 9041 times)

Offline m_fumich

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What happened to factory paint jobs?
« on: October 27, 2013, 01:58:09 PM »
Why do auto fininshes peel like this?



This didn't start happening until the mid to late 80's. What changed? If I have my car professionally sprayed, will the new finish do the same? Can I fix this without doing the whole car?
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Offline john k

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2013, 08:04:13 PM »
The paint is not whats peeling.   It is the clear coat on top.  It is what gives the finish that shine.  Sunlight does it in, sooner or later, a lot sooner if it is silver.   

Offline m_fumich

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2013, 09:33:54 PM »
I realize it's the clear coat but it's part of the overall paint job. Cars from the early 80's and earlier didn't do that. I've never seen a 60's or 70's car with peeling clear coat. Something obviously changed in the late 80's.
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Offline slip knot

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2013, 09:43:22 PM »
Prior to the mid  to late 80s cars were just painted with enamel and not basecoat/clearcoat. They didn't peel as much, just faded out.
Started with nothing and still have most of it left.

When did the American Dream become an entitlement program?

Offline brslk

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2013, 11:52:47 PM »
Can't really tell from the pic but it looks like classic Chrysler paint peeling.
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Offline m_fumich

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 12:01:06 AM »
The pic is my '03 PT Cruiser but Ford Taurus's have always had this problem.
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Offline Conductor562

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 12:21:56 AM »
Growing up my dad had a friend that worked at the state penn in the 70's when they made license plates. He said they kept getting complaints from the DMV of paint fading and pretty much washing off. He said they changed paint suppliers 2 or 3 times but it didn't get any better. After awhile they discovered that all the inmates were taking a piss in the paint which did something to the pigments and caused them to fade. I can't say this story is true, but that's the story.

Maybe someone decided to piss on Chrysler  lolx
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Offline dawg

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2013, 07:15:53 PM »
Why do auto fininshes peel like this? . . .

This didn't start happening until the mid to late 80's. What changed? If I have my car professionally sprayed, will the new finish do the same? Can I fix this without doing the whole car?

I'm not an expert painter but I have been learning about two-stage paint and have successfully used it on one of my cars.

Two-stage urethane is what you are referring to. One of the key features of two-stage urethane is it will dry quickly, but it is MOST important to spray the final clear coat before 24-hours has elapsed and the base coat completely dries. Also, you must use the proper temperature "reducer" (aka thinner). If you don't use the proper reducer then the paint can dry too quickly and therefore the clear coat is just laid on top the base coat. It will eventually start peeling in that case.

However, when it is done right, then it is the best paint job you can have because the clear and base coat become like a single tough protective layer of paint.

Steve
 

Offline scottg

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2013, 08:13:23 PM »
Yeee haw, Steve, Lookit that gloss!
  You really are a dooowg!  beerdude
Man that's pretty.  beerdude

 Part of the thing with factory paint is that pigment went ballistic. But clear was still relatively cheap.
(Not sure how it is now, this was a few years ago last I looked). 

 With pigment colored paint at $2 or 300 a gallon and more, and clear less than 1/4 of that?
  It was just a kiss of colored paint, and lots of clear over top.
    yours Scott
     

Offline dawg

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2013, 08:40:32 PM »
Thanks Scott! Yeah paint prices are very high and I've been using one of the best, PPG. Some people say the cheap stuff doesn't flow as well as better quality stuff.

Steve

Offline Centerpunch

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 09:28:11 PM »
Growing up my dad had a friend that worked at the state penn in the 70's when they made license plates. He said they kept getting complaints from the DMV of paint fading and pretty much washing off. He said they changed paint suppliers 2 or 3 times but it didn't get any better. After awhile they discovered that all the inmates were taking a piss in the paint which did something to the pigments and caused them to fade. I can't say this story is true, but that's the story.

Maybe someone decided to piss on Chrysler  lolx


I am going to use that story next time I see a friend who knows a great deal about cars or at least is interested in them, as I laughed quite hard at that.

Any chance of that being true though?


Offline Conductor562

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2013, 10:43:41 AM »
Growing up my dad had a friend that worked at the state penn in the 70's when they made license plates. He said they kept getting complaints from the DMV of paint fading and pretty much washing off. He said they changed paint suppliers 2 or 3 times but it didn't get any better. After awhile they discovered that all the inmates were taking a piss in the paint which did something to the pigments and caused them to fade. I can't say this story is true, but that's the story.

Maybe someone decided to piss on Chrysler  lolx


I am going to use that story next time I see a friend who knows a great deal about cars or at least is interested in them, as I laughed quite hard at that.

Any chance of that being true though?

He always purported it as the truth, and it seems plausible.
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Offline Centerpunch

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2013, 10:46:04 AM »
Well I guess anything is possible in that type of enviroment. 

Offline m_fumich

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2013, 11:02:32 AM »
OK, so what's causing all this pealing clear coat on cars since the late 80's? Improper paint job? Clear coat too thick? What was different about the paint jobs before that?
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Offline dawg

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2013, 11:36:53 AM »
OK, so what's causing all this pealing clear coat on cars since the late 80's? Improper paint job? Clear coat too thick? What was different about the paint jobs before that?

Like I said above, it is the improper use of two-stage urethane paint. I think Scott is right about them using just a wisp of base coat (color) and then using a lot of clear. What that does is the "wisp" of paint dries too fast before getting the clear coat in time to bond with the base coat. In proper use both the base coat and clear coat are supposed to bond together as one single coat of paint. You can only do that when the base coat has not completely dried yet.

Prior to that they used others such as lacquer, acrylic lacquer, enamel, acrylic enamel, maybe more, all in single stage uses. The main problem with those were usually fading in the sun after a few years. Enamel is still pretty good stuff though, if you're budget minded.

Steve
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 11:51:27 AM by dawg »

Offline m_fumich

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2013, 02:24:45 PM »
To the auto manufacturers are screwing up on a large scale?
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Offline scottg

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2013, 02:48:06 PM »
Don't know nuthing about expensive paint, but I do know cheap.  :)

    There was a line of paint called sun-cryl, acrylic enamel paint, that supposedly holds up pretty good.
One part acrylic enamel.

  All cars were painted with acrylic enamel for 30 years or more.  Sun-cryl is a fade resistant line of paint and isn't terrible expensive.
  A friend of mine runs M&M paint in Medford Or (where all the body shop guys go)
and he put me onto it for a decent but inexpensive paint.
  Another tip at your paint dealer. Ask for a dented can. What do you care if the can is dented? And you can sometimes get them at a dramatic discount.  I got 2 gallons of Bondo free because they were dented. Also Keith had a line of poly filler/primer that was discontinued and he gave me 1/2 a case of it!
 So make friends with your paint dealer and scrounge his back room for junk.

   Also, what they called industrial enamel (tractor paint) was still for sale at Napa last I looked. Another acrylic enamel. This is pretty tough paint!  I have painted a couple cars, and trailers and tractors with it over time.
  My wheelbarrow is still red, even though its very tired now, 20 years after I painted it!
 It has suffered complete neglect and light abuse all this time, and its still mostly red. 
 
 Paint and painting is a bit of an elitist activity. Understatement. I used to hang around the car painters discussion group site a little, and Lordy Lordy, those boys wouldn't touch anything but a $1700 paint gun and the most expensive paint on the market.  Talk about your Yuppie culture, the car painters are among the champs. Makes Garage Journal look easy going.
 
  The good news is that since they turn their noses up at so many things it holds the price down for us 'po boys, if you scrouge around the edges.
       yours Scott
 

Offline dawg

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2013, 04:58:36 PM »
To the auto manufacturers are screwing up on a large scale?

Naaawww. The manufacturer of the car photographed in your original post was probably screwing up for a while though. Peeling like that won't happen right away. Maybe a paint supplier stopped by to see why they were buying so much clear and no base coat, who knows. They are usually good sources of information. My old 1993 VW was two-stage paint and now currently refinishing it. But it didn't peel, the clear coat started micro cracking after 12 years so I had to take all the old clear coat off.

Just to stay in Scott's good graces, the hood I painted was done with a Harbor Freight gun. The hood was a salvage job after being slightly dented and "totaled" by the insurance company. It also helped that the accident occurred during the Cash for Clunkers program as in getting it totaled for $7500 and buying back for $4500. But I still think there's a difference between high quality expensive paint (PPG) and cheaper brands.

Steve
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 05:29:08 PM by dawg »

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2013, 05:13:29 PM »
Early factory base coat/clear coat formulas were not well researched -- GM had some real problems with that aspect in the late 80's, and so did a few Japanese and Korean brands.

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2013, 10:01:29 PM »
OK, so what's causing all this pealing clear coat on cars since the late 80's? Improper paint job? Clear coat too thick? What was different about the paint jobs before that?

Like I said above, it is the improper use of two-stage urethane paint. I think Scott is right about them using just a wisp of base coat (color) and then using a lot of clear. What that does is the "wisp" of paint dries too fast before getting the clear coat in time to bond with the base coat. In proper use both the base coat and clear coat are supposed to bond together as one single coat of paint. You can only do that when the base coat has not completely dried yet.

Prior to that they used others such as lacquer, acrylic lacquer, enamel, acrylic enamel, maybe more, all in single stage uses. The main problem with those were usually fading in the sun after a few years. Enamel is still pretty good stuff though, if you're budget minded.

Steve

I've been painting cars for about 25 years and what Steve says is pretty much bang on. There were also some learning experiences factories had when they were forced to switch over to water based paints. The change of process to HVLP was also an issue.

Bruce.
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Offline dawg

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2013, 10:52:54 AM »

I've been painting cars for about 25 years and what Steve says is pretty much bang on. . . .

Bruce.

Holy COW! I only have a million or so questions to ask you . . .  :))
. . . starting with, did manufacturers have to go to water based paints? . . . why and when?
That's a whole different paint gun there, am I wrong?

Steve
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 11:08:41 AM by dawg »

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2013, 11:50:29 AM »
The change to water based paints was in the 1999 model year.
   Look around your neighborhood.  The first ones are either repainted or look like crap.   Chryslers are the usual suspects around me with certain darker colors of Nissan following.   All makes were affected however.
   There were some colors that the water based did work better which explains why the 2000 into 2005 models all seemed to be painted in them.

    The upside is that the bad paint makes lower resale, get one cheaper and repaint in better quality materials you have a solid good looking car again.    It is easy to spot the '99 to '04 models years by the peeling clear coat too.

Offline m_fumich

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2013, 12:24:59 PM »
It is easy to spot the '99 to '04 models years by the peeling clear coat too.

The car in my picture is a 2003.
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Offline pepi

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2013, 12:57:30 PM »

I've been painting cars for about 25 years and what Steve says is pretty much bang on. . . .

Bruce.

Holy COW! I only have a million or so questions to ask you . . .  :))
. . . starting with, did manufacturers have to go to water based paints? . . . why and when?
That's a whole different paint gun there, am I wrong?

Steve

The gun and cap are not different, just the material they are made from was changed .
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Offline Centerpunch

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2013, 12:59:45 PM »
Bruce:  I certainly have a question for you.  In USA, we have a EPA that has more or less banned lead from being in most paints.  Or at least that is what I am lead to believe.

Anyway, my question is that the case in Canada as well?  As I learned some manufacturers knew that lead was toxic, yet still placed in this paint anyway.

Also, what your thoughts on touch paint?  Cheap imitator or a good fix?


Offline TWX

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2014, 02:44:20 AM »
Old thread I know...

I just wanted to point out that with the arrival of "the wet look" where the clear coat was now a requirement, the automaker really only needs the paint to look good for the duration of time that the original new-car buyer needs the car to look good.  That could be until resale for buyers that go through a lot of new cars, or it could be until the new-car buyer expects the car to age and for the paint to age with it.

Remember, the automakers only really have to satisfy the new-car buyers.  Those are the people that give them profit.  So long as the new-car buyer is satisfied enough to continue to buy new cars, the automakers continue to make money, and the process continues.

At some point someone came up with "the wet look".  It became popular.  It doesn't last as long as older paint processes, but it lasts long enough to sell new cars.

If you want to avoid the clearcoat death-by-sunlight, get a car cover, park in the garage, or buy white cars that have a much greater chance of not being clear-coated.  My wife's '01 Acura Integra has been consistently garaged at night the whole 150K miles that she's driven it, and its white paint still looks fairly decent for a thirteen year old car.  By contrast the '97 Dodge Stratus that I'd had previously, with red metallic paint, started looking bad before I'd bought it with 48,000 miles on it, and looked horrible by 110K when I got rid of it for unrelated reasons.  At work we have a 2nd-generation Stratus in white, that has only peeled at the top back of the roof, not on the hood, trunk lid, doors, fenders, etc, and that car is kept outside uncovered 24/7.  I expect that it could even be re-cleared and turn out OK.

Offline Muddy

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2014, 09:49:21 AM »
My 94 Plymouth is just faded. My 03 Ram is rusting and peeling all over.
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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2014, 10:25:22 AM »
This isn't the 70's anymore. Back then the industry had moved from acrylic lacquer to a good high coverage paint system with acrylic enamel. It was single stage and cars were usually painted with three wet coats of acrylic. That provided depth and shine, but took a lot longer to completely dry and cure.

Today the paint is applied much thinner and the technology is much more forgiving with respect to drying time and curing, but the amount of paint and clear on the panel is pretty sparse. I've seen OEM clear coats burn through after just a few seconds of wet sanding or polishing. So there isn't much material to begin with.

10 years ago US car finishes were pretty spotty -- especially from GM, but these days many manufacturers seem to have a lot of problems. My buddy has two BMW's ( 7 series and SUV) and a Mercedes (SUV). All vehicles are parked outside, and the paint on all of them is fading and oxidizing. He's had the Mercedes detailed and polished and it looked great, but the shop told him they couldn't do another polish because the paint was so thin.

Time will tell if the new water-based coatings hold up over the long run --
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 10:34:06 AM by goodfellow »

Offline Muddy

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2014, 03:37:08 PM »
Here my 94 looks great WET in the sun.




But you can see once she dries she shows her age.

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2014, 10:57:50 PM »
 Sure does have a wet look, and cast a wet reflection thumbsup2
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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2014, 11:01:59 PM »
I hope a good polish will bring its shine back.
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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2014, 11:16:48 PM »
I hope a good polish will bring its shine back.

Color sand it first Tim. That paint is too oxidized to just polish -- 1000 or 1500 grit should do it.

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2014, 11:18:05 PM »
I hope a good polish will bring its shine back.

Color sand it first Tim. That paint is too oxidized to just polish -- 1000 or 1500 grit should do it.

Wet........of course?
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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2014, 11:21:28 PM »
I hope a good polish will bring its shine back.

Color sand it first Tim. That paint is too oxidized to just polish -- 1000 or 1500 grit should do it.

Wet........of course?

Yup, and use a sanding block to get an even finish. Then just plain old polishing compound will bring out the shine again.

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2014, 11:22:32 PM »
Thanks ray! thumbsup2
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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2014, 05:41:45 PM »
Several years ago on Motorweek they had a Goss' Garage segment where they addressed the clear-peel issue on a Ford Explorer, looks like one could possibly carefully sand down existing clear then re-clear over the base-coat and get some halfway-decent results.  Haven't tried it myself- the Stratus probably could have used it but I don't have it anymore, and none of the other vehicles have had that kind of paint degradation.

I'm tempted to have the '82 Dodge Crew Cab painted with aircraft paint so that it lasts longer outside in the weather, or since it'll be painted red, maybe go with some kind of tractor paint if not aviation paint...

Offline brslk

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2014, 12:31:07 AM »
The best paint I have ever used hands down. As close to powder coating strength without powder coating.
I've sprayed it on boats, cars, bikes, equipment and well... everything.

It is a Canadian company but they do have a US distributor.

Nice gloss, somewhat easy application once you learn the process and relatively inexpensive.

I could go on and on about how much I like it and I have no connection to the company.
My father used it to paint cars when they were just a small company starting out. 

Edited to add a link. Whoops.

http://www.endura.ca/
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 10:57:39 PM by brslk »
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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2014, 12:31:07 AM »

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