Author Topic: What happened to factory paint jobs?  (Read 9039 times)

Offline m_fumich

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2013, 02:24:45 PM »
To the auto manufacturers are screwing up on a large scale?
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Offline scottg

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2013, 02:48:06 PM »
Don't know nuthing about expensive paint, but I do know cheap.  :)

    There was a line of paint called sun-cryl, acrylic enamel paint, that supposedly holds up pretty good.
One part acrylic enamel.

  All cars were painted with acrylic enamel for 30 years or more.  Sun-cryl is a fade resistant line of paint and isn't terrible expensive.
  A friend of mine runs M&M paint in Medford Or (where all the body shop guys go)
and he put me onto it for a decent but inexpensive paint.
  Another tip at your paint dealer. Ask for a dented can. What do you care if the can is dented? And you can sometimes get them at a dramatic discount.  I got 2 gallons of Bondo free because they were dented. Also Keith had a line of poly filler/primer that was discontinued and he gave me 1/2 a case of it!
 So make friends with your paint dealer and scrounge his back room for junk.

   Also, what they called industrial enamel (tractor paint) was still for sale at Napa last I looked. Another acrylic enamel. This is pretty tough paint!  I have painted a couple cars, and trailers and tractors with it over time.
  My wheelbarrow is still red, even though its very tired now, 20 years after I painted it!
 It has suffered complete neglect and light abuse all this time, and its still mostly red. 
 
 Paint and painting is a bit of an elitist activity. Understatement. I used to hang around the car painters discussion group site a little, and Lordy Lordy, those boys wouldn't touch anything but a $1700 paint gun and the most expensive paint on the market.  Talk about your Yuppie culture, the car painters are among the champs. Makes Garage Journal look easy going.
 
  The good news is that since they turn their noses up at so many things it holds the price down for us 'po boys, if you scrouge around the edges.
       yours Scott
 

Offline dawg

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2013, 04:58:36 PM »
To the auto manufacturers are screwing up on a large scale?

Naaawww. The manufacturer of the car photographed in your original post was probably screwing up for a while though. Peeling like that won't happen right away. Maybe a paint supplier stopped by to see why they were buying so much clear and no base coat, who knows. They are usually good sources of information. My old 1993 VW was two-stage paint and now currently refinishing it. But it didn't peel, the clear coat started micro cracking after 12 years so I had to take all the old clear coat off.

Just to stay in Scott's good graces, the hood I painted was done with a Harbor Freight gun. The hood was a salvage job after being slightly dented and "totaled" by the insurance company. It also helped that the accident occurred during the Cash for Clunkers program as in getting it totaled for $7500 and buying back for $4500. But I still think there's a difference between high quality expensive paint (PPG) and cheaper brands.

Steve
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 05:29:08 PM by dawg »

Offline goodfellow

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2013, 05:13:29 PM »
Early factory base coat/clear coat formulas were not well researched -- GM had some real problems with that aspect in the late 80's, and so did a few Japanese and Korean brands.

Offline brslk

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2013, 10:01:29 PM »
OK, so what's causing all this pealing clear coat on cars since the late 80's? Improper paint job? Clear coat too thick? What was different about the paint jobs before that?

Like I said above, it is the improper use of two-stage urethane paint. I think Scott is right about them using just a wisp of base coat (color) and then using a lot of clear. What that does is the "wisp" of paint dries too fast before getting the clear coat in time to bond with the base coat. In proper use both the base coat and clear coat are supposed to bond together as one single coat of paint. You can only do that when the base coat has not completely dried yet.

Prior to that they used others such as lacquer, acrylic lacquer, enamel, acrylic enamel, maybe more, all in single stage uses. The main problem with those were usually fading in the sun after a few years. Enamel is still pretty good stuff though, if you're budget minded.

Steve

I've been painting cars for about 25 years and what Steve says is pretty much bang on. There were also some learning experiences factories had when they were forced to switch over to water based paints. The change of process to HVLP was also an issue.

Bruce.
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Offline dawg

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2013, 10:52:54 AM »

I've been painting cars for about 25 years and what Steve says is pretty much bang on. . . .

Bruce.

Holy COW! I only have a million or so questions to ask you . . .  :))
. . . starting with, did manufacturers have to go to water based paints? . . . why and when?
That's a whole different paint gun there, am I wrong?

Steve
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 11:08:41 AM by dawg »

Online strik9

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2013, 11:50:29 AM »
The change to water based paints was in the 1999 model year.
   Look around your neighborhood.  The first ones are either repainted or look like crap.   Chryslers are the usual suspects around me with certain darker colors of Nissan following.   All makes were affected however.
   There were some colors that the water based did work better which explains why the 2000 into 2005 models all seemed to be painted in them.

    The upside is that the bad paint makes lower resale, get one cheaper and repaint in better quality materials you have a solid good looking car again.    It is easy to spot the '99 to '04 models years by the peeling clear coat too.

Offline m_fumich

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2013, 12:24:59 PM »
It is easy to spot the '99 to '04 models years by the peeling clear coat too.

The car in my picture is a 2003.
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Offline pepi

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2013, 12:57:30 PM »

I've been painting cars for about 25 years and what Steve says is pretty much bang on. . . .

Bruce.

Holy COW! I only have a million or so questions to ask you . . .  :))
. . . starting with, did manufacturers have to go to water based paints? . . . why and when?
That's a whole different paint gun there, am I wrong?

Steve

The gun and cap are not different, just the material they are made from was changed .
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Offline Centerpunch

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2013, 12:59:45 PM »
Bruce:  I certainly have a question for you.  In USA, we have a EPA that has more or less banned lead from being in most paints.  Or at least that is what I am lead to believe.

Anyway, my question is that the case in Canada as well?  As I learned some manufacturers knew that lead was toxic, yet still placed in this paint anyway.

Also, what your thoughts on touch paint?  Cheap imitator or a good fix?


Offline TWX

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2014, 02:44:20 AM »
Old thread I know...

I just wanted to point out that with the arrival of "the wet look" where the clear coat was now a requirement, the automaker really only needs the paint to look good for the duration of time that the original new-car buyer needs the car to look good.  That could be until resale for buyers that go through a lot of new cars, or it could be until the new-car buyer expects the car to age and for the paint to age with it.

Remember, the automakers only really have to satisfy the new-car buyers.  Those are the people that give them profit.  So long as the new-car buyer is satisfied enough to continue to buy new cars, the automakers continue to make money, and the process continues.

At some point someone came up with "the wet look".  It became popular.  It doesn't last as long as older paint processes, but it lasts long enough to sell new cars.

If you want to avoid the clearcoat death-by-sunlight, get a car cover, park in the garage, or buy white cars that have a much greater chance of not being clear-coated.  My wife's '01 Acura Integra has been consistently garaged at night the whole 150K miles that she's driven it, and its white paint still looks fairly decent for a thirteen year old car.  By contrast the '97 Dodge Stratus that I'd had previously, with red metallic paint, started looking bad before I'd bought it with 48,000 miles on it, and looked horrible by 110K when I got rid of it for unrelated reasons.  At work we have a 2nd-generation Stratus in white, that has only peeled at the top back of the roof, not on the hood, trunk lid, doors, fenders, etc, and that car is kept outside uncovered 24/7.  I expect that it could even be re-cleared and turn out OK.

Offline Muddy

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2014, 09:49:21 AM »
My 94 Plymouth is just faded. My 03 Ram is rusting and peeling all over.
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Offline goodfellow

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2014, 10:25:22 AM »
This isn't the 70's anymore. Back then the industry had moved from acrylic lacquer to a good high coverage paint system with acrylic enamel. It was single stage and cars were usually painted with three wet coats of acrylic. That provided depth and shine, but took a lot longer to completely dry and cure.

Today the paint is applied much thinner and the technology is much more forgiving with respect to drying time and curing, but the amount of paint and clear on the panel is pretty sparse. I've seen OEM clear coats burn through after just a few seconds of wet sanding or polishing. So there isn't much material to begin with.

10 years ago US car finishes were pretty spotty -- especially from GM, but these days many manufacturers seem to have a lot of problems. My buddy has two BMW's ( 7 series and SUV) and a Mercedes (SUV). All vehicles are parked outside, and the paint on all of them is fading and oxidizing. He's had the Mercedes detailed and polished and it looked great, but the shop told him they couldn't do another polish because the paint was so thin.

Time will tell if the new water-based coatings hold up over the long run --
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 10:34:06 AM by goodfellow »

Offline Muddy

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2014, 03:37:08 PM »
Here my 94 looks great WET in the sun.




But you can see once she dries she shows her age.

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Offline pepi

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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2014, 10:57:50 PM »
 Sure does have a wet look, and cast a wet reflection thumbsup2
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Re: What happened to factory paint jobs?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2014, 10:57:50 PM »

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