Author Topic: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600  (Read 21741 times)

Offline torqueman2002

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I picked up this CM Block grinder off CL for $60 a couple of years ago. I stashed it away and dragged it out a couple of days ago to see what needs to be done to put it back in shape. I put a tie wrap through the prongs on the plug later, to remind me it makes some scary sounds. I discovered what was making the sounds and other sins covered up by that quick and dirty Ford engine blue paint job.

Here's Big Blue; aka - BB. UPDATE - New name: Go Blue!


I think the label is under the blue paint; but, judging by the base with water tray and 8" wire wheel and stone, it looks like a 0.75 or 1.0 HP (dare I hope for a Crown Top Commercial grade?). Today I'll try to get the paint off without ruining the label.


Here's the case split with the armature and other electrics already removed - which I'll show later. This view shows winding and case orientation (I'll never remember).


Cord's strain relief/bushing pushes in from the outside of the case.


Left hand bearing and case. This thing has seen water in it's past; rusty puddle is Kroil.


I was lucky, the shaft and bearings separated from the case halves by gently tapping with a soft faced hammer; after a soaking with Kroil. Left hand packing, spring type washer, and bearing. Not show here is a 'C' clip on the other side of the bearing.




Right hand side.


View of 'C' Clip on inside face of right hand bearing.     Tip to self: Remove this clip Before using bearing separator & puller.  smackmyself


Bearing separator installed and ready for puller to remove left side bearing. Shaft cleaned up with emory cloth. See: Tip to self, above.


The shaft has a little damage that will clean up and the C clip survived. I forgot to get pictures. OK, here they are.
The cleaned up shaft and C clip.








Left bearing ID.


Right bearing ID.


Local shop helped me out with the old & discontinued bearings, with a replacement for these most commonly used bearing size.
Bearing Service
13400 Newburgh Rd.
Livonia, MI 48150
734-591-0400
FAX 734-591-1688
800-929-0200
http://www.bearingservice.com/





More later; back into the shop for more fun.

Thanks for looking. Questions and replies welcomed.  :conf:

Edited: 13Jul10 - Add pics of cleaned up shaft and bearing 'C' clip.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 12:34:08 AM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2013, 02:57:30 PM »
More pics. Some cleaning up of the case and cover.

The left hand case looks much better than the right hand side. Surprising, since the left bearing was so much worse. Cleaning up only the bearing boss, very light touch here and on the right cover.


The right bearing feels good, smooth and without noise; what's with the case then?
Just using what's at hand. Any one know which color Roll-Loc is more aggressive?


Cases after some time in the media blaster, I use Black Diamond from TSC.


Inside the cases.


Getting ready for paint.


Inside of cover, more evidence of water.


Getting the paint off the label, to see what model and HP BB is.


I left the stripper on less than 10 min. and the blue came off easily; not hurting the label!

What? It's there, look at the lower left corner. There's the label, or what is left. Can ANYONE tell from this what I have!!??  smackmyself

Oh well, it was worth the try; into the blaster with it!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 03:38:50 PM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline Hofferwood

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 04:23:43 PM »
Looking good as usual Mike  thumbsup2
We have a Bearing Service down here too, on Allen rd. Very helpful guys.
Tractor Supply is THE place to get Black Diamond, propane refills too--they fill 'tlii it won't take no more` th-smile (I hit the one in Monroe)

Isn't it done yet------I'll check back in five minutes     lolx lolx lolx
Chuck

If it aint broke, Fix it till it is!

Offline dawg

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 04:52:38 PM »
Great job, nice pix. It's too bad some people don't leave well enough alone. The guy might have been able to get more money than $60. It appears to be a larger hp grinder but don't know what.

Steve
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 05:00:35 PM by dawg »

Offline dawg

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2013, 05:11:10 PM »
I looked in a 1966 catalog to see one close, but it isn't exactly the same. It has 7-inch wheels but is only a half horse motor.

Steve

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2013, 05:31:21 PM »
Here's another one from a 1955 catalog and it looks closer to what you have. It is a half horse power though. That was really the top of the line back then and in the 1966 catalog, the larger HP grinders didn't look even close to yours.

He-he, note the $7.00 down payment.  th-smile
The price is probably the equivalent of a $500 grinder today.

Steve
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 05:37:19 PM by dawg »

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2013, 06:36:50 PM »
Based on that 1955 price, that grinder would run about $582 today. Tools were expensive then, so they built them to last and to provide value. Compared to today, tools are pretty inexpesive, but the value and longevity is mostly gone; unless you're willing to shell out the BIG dollars.

Offline scottg

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2013, 08:39:16 PM »
I don't know what model this is either, but nobody ever put 8" wheels on a hobby grinder in the 60's.
     It kind of looks like the lightweight toolrests because of the tapped holes in the side covers, but then there is the hole on each side of the little dunk tank, so they could have been the more robust ones.
  Maybe there were submodels made when it was new,  and you could get either. Sears always did have a good, better, best scheme going.
  I would hit the salvation army or swap meet for a flexy neck lamp for it. Should be easy and cheap.
 I use a full face shield when I grind anything with any tool, so I wouldn't worry about eye shields.
 
 I bet its the 3/4 horse model. A really desirable grinder. Hope it works out nice for you. 
  yours Scott 

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2013, 08:39:22 PM »
Looking good as usual Mike  thumbsup2
We have a Bearing Service down here too, on Allen rd. Very helpful guys.
Tractor Supply is THE place to get Black Diamond, propane refills too--they fill 'tlii it won't take no more` th-smile (I hit the one in Monroe)

Isn't it done yet------I'll check back in five minutes     lolx lolx lolx

I hit the TSC in Milford/S. Lyons; it's on the route to/from work.

I like their Velspar Tractor Implement paint, but this guy is rough and I thought Rust-Oleum Hammered Deep Blue would look good for BB.

But -  sadx HD didn't have any, in fact I cannot find it on-line, even though it's on their color chart. (Sends eMail to RO customer assistance).

I've been looking through Lowes on-line RO color chart for other blues, man there are a lot.

I hope to get a coat of primer on it tonight.

More pics. in the hopper, but I find I spend almost as much time posting a project as I do on the project. Who'd guess I jockey a keyboard 75% of the time at work?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 09:12:12 PM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2013, 08:42:19 PM »
I looked in a 1966 catalog to see one close, but it isn't exactly the same. It has 7-inch wheels but is only a half horse motor.

Steve

I love the 3-prong adapter!

That is cool, thanks! I love looking back.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2013, 08:44:51 PM »
Based on that 1955 price, that grinder would run about $582 today. Tools were expensive then, so they built them to last and to provide value. Compared to today, tools are pretty inexpesive, but the value and longevity is mostly gone; unless you're willing to shell out the BIG dollars.

about $582 today  :eek:

That's Baldor $$, probably quality too.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2013, 08:56:04 PM »
Here's another one from a 1955 catalog and it looks closer to what you have. It is a half horse power though. That was really the top of the line back then and in the 1966 catalog, the larger HP grinders didn't look even close to yours.

He-he, note the $7.00 down payment.  th-smile
The price is probably the equivalent of a $500 grinder today.

Steve

Lay-away! I never used it, but my parents did in the 50's & 60's!

It does look like the cooling tray and tool rest, but the switch looks different.

I looks like the 1.0 HP I picked up about a year ago from a retired Sears hardware/tool department salesman. Original owner to boot!


But it could be like the 0.75 HP one with a different switch. Both have 8" wheels/stones.


 shrugx

I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline dawg

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2013, 09:15:28 PM »
Here's another one from a 1955 catalog and it looks closer to what you have. It is a half horse power though. That was really the top of the line back then and in the 1966 catalog, the larger HP grinders didn't look even close to yours.

He-he, note the $7.00 down payment.  th-smile
The price is probably the equivalent of a $500 grinder today.

Steve
Lay-away! I never used it, but my parents did in the 50's & 60's!

It does look like the cooling tray and tool rest, but the switch looks different.

I looks like the 1.0 HP I picked up about a year ago from a retired Sears hardware/tool department salesman. Original owner to boot!

But it could be like the 0.75 HP one with a different switch. Both have 8" wheels/stones.

 shrugx

I don't have every Craftsman catalog but the ones I did see larger than 1/2 HP didn't even look close to yours in every way. The one (1 hp) above might be newer than 1966, just a guess. There's definitely two different logos.

I think the more interesting aspect of prices Ray and I touched on, is that I think retailers and manufacturers try to stick with a price point and stay there . . . no matter what. Either that, or consumers in general won't pay more period. Maybe both.

The result is always lower quality than in the past, cutting costs of production.

Steve
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 09:41:06 PM by dawg »

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2013, 09:40:08 PM »
     It kind of looks like the lightweight toolrests because of the tapped holes in the side covers, but then there is the hole on each side of the little dunk tank, so they could have been the more robust ones.
  Maybe there were submodels made when it was new,  and you could get either. Sears always did have a good, better, best scheme going.
  I would hit the salvation army or swap meet for a flexy neck lamp for it. Should be easy and cheap.
 I use a full face shield when I grind anything with any tool, so I wouldn't worry about eye shields.
 
 I bet its the 3/4 horse model. A really desirable grinder. Hope it works out nice for you. 
  yours Scott

The tapped side cover holes are a puzzler, they're not on the 0.75 or 1.0 HP models with that dunk-tank-base in the pics. above.  scratchhead

I have a couple of g-necks in mind.
The new.


The vintage.




I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2013, 09:47:34 PM »
... I think retailers and manufacturers try to stick with a price point and stay there . . . no matter what. Either that, or consumers in general won't pay more period. Maybe both.

The result is always lower quality than in the past, cutting costs of production.

Steve
Yes, thus we have lower quality grinders, tools, ... sourced from Japan, Mexico, Korea, Taiwan, China, and India, over the years; the next will likely be Africa with it's very young population.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2013, 10:16:11 PM »
How about this one? It has the switch, the quench-tray-base, tapped side covers, 2-piece tool rests, and fluted wheel side covers.



BTW - I had to update my signature; I've been called a blockhead, because of my affinity for CM Block Motor Grinders. angryguyx
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 11:33:00 PM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2013, 11:32:14 PM »
Another step closer today.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2013, 11:58:08 AM »
Spent  time editing shots of the electrics to post as a guide for future rebuilds. I will need to verify there is no hidden damage to the components that are reused, as I see more and more evidence this guy was water logged.

Wiring view with bottom cover removed.


115V /230V wiring diagram on inside of cover.


For comparison, below is the diagram for a 1/2 HP Craftsman Commercial 'Crown Top' Model 397.1951.
Caution. I have not analyzed the 2 for similarities or differences. Use as a reference only.






Switch removal, I became suspicious about what was in store when I removed the wood screws for the switch and the duct tape covering the lamp mounting hole.






Switch and start capacitor.


Switch and start relay. This shot shows the switch terminal on the right is tweaked/bent almost making contact with the other terminal. There are other indicators of careless, unskilled 'workmanship' throughout. This is not the worst example, that will be seen in the grinding wheel pics. to follow.
I was justified in tagging this guy as dangerous and putting a tie wrap through the terminal holes in the power plug. Had this not been one of my first Block Motor grinder purchases, I would have walked away or paid a lot less than $60.


I put some witness marks on the switch, paint dots.






The other side of the switch.






Start relay wiring diagram. Witness marks are lines of paint, noted on diagram, not visible in picture.


Start capacitor details.








End frames - stator and coil assembly orientation.


Power cord and bushing push 'in' from outside of RH end frame.


Thanks for viewing.
Comments, corrections, questions are welcome.
More to follow.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2013, 12:02:41 PM »
You can take that power switch apart to thoroughly clean an lube it. I rebuilt mine and it works like new. The cap is probably still working - just needs some cleaning.

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2013, 01:28:07 PM »
You can take that power switch apart to thoroughly clean an lube it. I rebuilt mine and it works like new. The cap is probably still working - just needs some cleaning.

gf, thanks.
My hope is to re-use the switch, after cleaning and treating with DeoxIT® D5 (Part No. D5S-6) - a Contact Cleaner / Rejuvenator / Protector.
Link --> http://store.caig.com/

The cap is probably OK, as you say; I have a Heathkit Cap tester to verify. Otherwise, Graingers has a same sized one, but higher rated: Dayton 233-280 MFD, 110-125V, p/n: 2MDR9; for ~$6.60.

Still looking for material to make a felt washer that goes between the end frames and the bearing spring washers. Brian K. at OWMM, says that I can reuse the nasty one after cleaning it, but if I can make a new one, all the better.

Isn't this stuff fun!? ;D
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2013, 01:33:02 PM »
You can take that power switch apart to thoroughly clean an lube it. I rebuilt mine and it works like new. The cap is probably still working - just needs some cleaning.
gf, thanks.
.... .........The cap is probably OK, as you say; I have a Heathkit Cap tester to verify..............

Isn't this stuff fun!? ;D

Yes, I have  few of the vintage cap testers from Heathkit and Sprague. Good to have a round, but the test voltages are scary -- LOL

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2013, 05:06:17 PM »
I looked for a place that might have some parts for the motor: felt washer/material, and crescent external retaining ring.

There are several so I dropped by a shop listed as providing: "Complete motor & repair service, custom winding, short run production, lift truck, traction, mill & presses."

Armatures, Inc.
28627 Grand River Ave.
Farmington Hills, MI 48336-5825
Phone: 248-474-2754
800-628-2789 (toll free)
Fax: 248-474-3370

I've driven past the neat and tidy shop 100's of times, but never saw their sign.

When I entered the shop, the front door was locked, I saw massive motors in various stages of assembly. These were motors used on industrial cranes, and the like.

The smallest were the size of a starter motor for a Detroit Diesel.

Anyway I explained what I was doing and what I was looking for and the shop foreman had several questions and made some interesting comments.
  • The felt washers have not been used for many years. But they can be effectively cleaned and rinsed in a solvent like kerosene or paint thinner. Or made out of any felt material to the same dimensions.
  • It's function is to keep crud out of the bearings. They could be left out if sealed bearings are used.
  • The original (and replacement) bearings are shielded. Sealed bearings are fine, both are designed to run within the grinder motor's range of 3580 R.P.M.
  • The felt washers are not needed for arbor assembly alignment, all electric motors seek their natural center when running.
  • The C shaped crescent external retaining ring, on the inboard side of the bearing can be replaced with a proper sized snap ring, clearance shouldn't be an issue.

I have most all the pieces to begin putting them together, once the painting is done and it is dry enough to be handled.

I noticed the shaft has a dark, almost black finish that filing and sanding removed.

Any ideas what should be used to restore it and protect the bare metal. Is it some form of industrial 'bluing'?
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2013, 11:09:52 PM »
These are the last of the tear down pictures, the next posts will be the clean-up, testing, reassembly, and current draw (to assist in determining model and HP).

Front view.


LH side view.


RH side view.


Bottom cover view. My guess is a PO broke away the base to bolt it down in 4 places, rather than the as built 2.


LH wire wheel & flange detail.




RH wire wheel & flange detail.



Stone detail.



It passes the 'ring' test.
Even so, here is where it goes, the trash.


Thanks for looking.
Mike.
I am a Blockhead Man.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline scottg

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2013, 08:06:48 PM »
Looked to me like the stone was too fine anyway.
Go for a 24 grit if you can get one, otherwise 36! 
Fine stones do nothing much more than burn the temper out of steel.  I don't even know why they make them.
  The white or pink fine stones wear super fast, but for scissors and drills they are ok.
  Otherwise I want a coarse stone. A good fast edge, or waste the offending metal off your project and don't take all day about it.
    yours Scott 

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2013, 08:56:25 PM »
Glad you dumped the stone, I forgot to mention that aspect in my previous post. If it was water logged or even stored in a damp basement, the stone will rot and can easily disintegrate on start up.

Stones are relatively cheap when considering the price of a good grinder.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 09:07:22 PM by goodfellow »

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2013, 08:58:09 PM »
What you guys do with old Block Grinders is freakin' amazing! thumbsup2

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2013, 09:09:38 PM »
What you guys do with old Block Grinders is freakin' amazing! thumbsup2

Torqueman pretty much cornered the market on Craftsman block motor restos -- everyone is looking to him for inspiration

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2013, 09:19:05 PM »
Looked to me like the stone was too fine anyway.
Go for a 24 grit if you can get one, otherwise 36! 
Fine stones do nothing much more than burn the temper out of steel.  I don't even know why they make them.
  The white or pink fine stones wear super fast, but for scissors and drills they are ok.
  Otherwise I want a coarse stone. A good fast edge, or waste the offending metal off your project and don't take all day about it.
    yours Scott
Thanks, I have a LOT to learn about the subtleties of grinding.

I like using my grandfather's flat stones and light oil to put an edge on a knife. Takes time, but it is calming working the metal on the stones.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2013, 12:10:31 AM »
... water logged or even stored in a damp basement, the stone will rot and can easily disintegrate on start up.
Man, I did not know that! It certainly got way too wet, the paper label/cushion was like old thick cardboard the had gotten wet.

Thanks for the information.

Mike
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 09:30:58 AM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2013, 09:36:38 AM »
The following pics. detail the rusty rotor. I am not experienced with small e. motors to know if this rotor has been compromised, but it's construction looks like it would be unaffected.

Any ideas how to treat the bare metal after rust removal?











« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 09:55:44 AM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2013, 03:48:24 PM »
Put color on the pieces today. It was a good day, warm, little to no breeze. The inside was so bad, I decided to use up some silver that's been hanging around.













Thanks for looking.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2013, 04:51:02 PM »
These next pics. show the casting /pn of the painted pieces.

End Frame    pn 50 B   4988539 (LH)


End Frame    pn 50 B   4988539 (RH)


Wheel Guard      pn   A1   4971611 (RH)


Wheel Guard      pn   A1   4971614 (LH)


Wheel Cover      pn    1   4971613 (LH)


Wheel Cover      pn    1   4971610 (RH)


Base with Quench Tray   pn    4989451 / 4989452
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2013, 07:57:46 PM »
I guess I don't understand, did you first paint it all blue, then decide to paint it silver, or did you paint the outside blue and the inside silver. And if you did paint the outside blue and the inside silver why did you go to all that work to do that?? Also, if you painted the silver over the blue did you just decide you did not like the blue???
You boys better hold on cause i'm gonna have to stand on it!

NEED A 1/2" BONNEY STREAMLINE COMBINATION AND ANY OVER 13/16" TOO!



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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2013, 09:43:45 PM »
I guess I don't understand, did you first paint it all blue, then decide to paint it silver, or did you paint the outside blue and the inside silver. And if you did paint the outside blue and the inside silver why did you go to all that work to do that?? Also, if you painted the silver over the blue did you just decide you did not like the blue???

It looks to me like he painted the inside silver and the outside blue.
Why? Well what do you expect from a blockhead!?!

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2013, 10:10:46 PM »
Why? Well what do you expect from a blockhead!?!
bluesbro
I am a Blockhead Man!

Sorry about the pics being out of order. I primed, then painted the bottom & insides silver, then flipped the pieces over and painted the outsides & top blue. The band is hammered gold, a little disappointed, not much hammering evident.  fishslap
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2013, 09:23:18 AM »
I left rotor shaft and the stator winding at a local Armature shop, they did a high voltage surge test & high pot test to ground on the coils and, checked the rotor for broken internals for $20.

This thing made enough noise and there was enough rust I feel it's money wisely spent.

If it was a car component I would do a voltage drop, but to accomplish that on a stator a MegOhm tester is used.

Before shots.




The following pics. show the clean up of the rotor shaft and threaded ends; I used BB's cousin to wheel the shaft, but the area near the rotor got a treatment of Black Diamond in the blast cabinet.












I could re-assemble everything at this point, but there's still this groudy felt washer to deal with.


I have considered making one or cleaning it and re-using, but I have ordered 'factory' replacements, which should be here next week.

I found a place that has many of the grinder parts I didn't expect would be available (including some of the cast parts and labels):
  • End Frame (Case)
  • Wheel Guard (Inner)
  • Band (Center Cover)
  • Label
  • Tool Rest
Model: 257192190 1 H.P.
http://www.ereplacementparts.com/craftsman-257192190-grinder-parts-c-158286_159871_159949.html

Here's a video of Baldor large motor manufacturing.
BALDOR - Kings Mountain, North Carolina Plant

« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 09:30:00 AM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2013, 11:57:47 AM »
After I checked my order status; GF's post provided the nudge to re-assemble BB and not wait for the order from ereplacementparts dot com/

I checked the order status this morning.

I had a bad feeling when I read this; actually ALL the parts are 'On Order From Manufacturer'.


 Bslap

I've been to the Sears parts site, all the items I ordered are no longer available.  :groaner:


After rinsing the bad old felt washer in Acetone, it was still very dark with rust.
I made a new felt washer, so I could get on with re-assembly.




#0053400 is just the right OD






I removed the adhesive backing, trimming enough to bring it to the original's thickness. Good to go!
New one on left, good old one on right.

I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2013, 12:39:04 PM »
With the new felt washer done, the re-assembly can begin.

Note: When the shaft was cleaned of rust, the black finish was also removed. Not wanting the rust to begin again, it was painted. That was a mistake for not only the area where the bearings seat, but also where the wheel flanges surround the stones and wheels. These areas now have the paint removed.

I put a small amount of oil on the washers, who's function is to trap frut* and keep it out of the bearings.  *Bits and pieces of unidentifiable stuff.


This is the order the washers go on the left side; felt, then spring washer with 'fingers' towards the bearing.


Not show above - the clip on the inner side of the bearing(s); here is a shot of it before removal.


After removal.


The felt and spring washers in the End Frame (Case) LH side, ready for rotor-shaft with bearings.


Both End Frames, Stator & Coil assembly, and Rotor-Shaft & Bearing assembly


Assembly of the End Frames is done; next - terminating the wires, testing, and buttoning it up.






« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 12:55:01 PM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2013, 01:50:23 PM »
I cleaned up the power cord and put on a new plug.

Notice anything wrong with this picture or the next?




How about this one?


The old plug on top looks like a HF special, which are OK for a light duty application; if they are wired correctly. See above for examples of what not to do.
The Pass & Seymore, on the bottom, is a high quality replacement.


New plug, wired correctly. White wire goes to neutral terminal/blade (silver).

The HF plug above is wired with the Hot (Black wire) to the neutral/blade. This mean the power switch was opening the neutral; leaving the Hot wire circuit always complete.


This plug has the stripped ends of the wires fully protected, and visible below the clear plastic inner cover.  From the bottom - neutral (White wire) connects to the silver blade, ground (Green) connects to center blade, hot (Black) connects to the brass blade.

More 120VAC plug wiring information here: http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/accessories/ext_cord/end1/replace.htm
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline Hofferwood

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2013, 02:18:25 PM »
I cleaned up the power cord and put on a new plug.

Notice anything wrong with this picture or the next?




 


Yea,
You took the protective film off of the 87 fishslap  lolx
11yrs in a forge shop--been out 6, and I still can't take it off :groaner:

Great work Mike thumbsup2
Chuck

If it aint broke, Fix it till it is!

Offline BuckHenry

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2013, 02:24:05 PM »
That old grinder is really starting to look like something. Not bad for a blockhead.  thumbsup2

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2013, 03:53:18 PM »
Really looking sweet! Great project.
 So, yeah 3600 is too fast for most buffing. But you can mount a hard wheel (close sewed cotton. I always mount 2 together, they're skinny)  and do your heavy buffing work/roughout just perfect on this machine.
 You don't have to pull the frames or extend the arbor for a lot of work.
 
  I did that with mine. I use black heavy am/ox polishing compound on it.
 
 Here's a free tip. Polish will not stick to any wheel spinning at 3600. At that spreed it just slings off.
So catch it when spinning up, or cut the power and apply your polish as its spinning down.
 Then you can load the wheel and actually get some work done.

  Once its loaded you can "cut" pretty good.
 You still need a slow speed wheel (about 1000rpm) to buff to a mirror polish, but the grinder will rough out steel and get you close.
  Go with a light touch on brass and watch it.   It will want to cut into soft metals and forget plastic. You can't work light enough not to cut into plastic   
  yours Scott

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2013, 06:14:28 PM »
11yrs in a forge shop--
I looks great for 11 years of hazardous duty! Must be the film.  :D

Thanks for watching.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2013, 06:18:01 PM »
That old grinder is really starting to look like something. Not bad for a blockhead.  thumbsup2
Thank you!

I Am a Blockhead Man.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2013, 06:22:26 PM »
Scott, those tips will help when I begin fixing up the '71 MGB.

Thanks.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2013, 10:16:01 PM »
The power switch can be cleaned up, once it's apart.

Bend the ears back slghtly and lift off the top part with the red rocker switch cover, small pins are spring loaded and ride on the copper fingers which pivot in the middle - making /breaking the circuits through the contacts.


Foam cover removed.


Slightly pitted contacts; this is a Single Throw Double Pole (STDP).


The contacts cleaned up, and I got to use the diamond tipped terminal tool, A spray of Deoxit D5 removed any corrosion left and lubricated the contacts.






A little Dielectric Grease holds the springs and pins in the rocker, with a slight amount on the tips to help slide on the copper strips. The red rocker reacted with the alcohol, turning the towel pink, use it carefully.


No-load test (resistance), I'll follow up with a voltage drop once it is up and running.


I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2013, 10:20:19 PM »
Superb job, man - just superb! thumbsup2

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2013, 08:39:03 PM »
Superb job, man - just superb! thumbsup2

Thank you.

I hope this can serve as a guide for future restorations.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2013, 08:52:12 PM »
Well ---   It's Alive! It's Alive!

Up and running. Need to put finishing touches on it, but it is soo much quieter than when I ran it last. I'll detail the re-wiring, and draw up a schematic for reference.

For now though, take a look; bugs eye view (sort of).  :-\
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline Scout Driver

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2013, 08:55:56 PM »

Great thread!  You have created an excellent reference for us fellow "block" grinder owners. 

Just an FYI.  I recently discovered that Menards is stocking some felt washers in the hardware department.  Look for the area with regular washers in the isle with all the little hardware drawers.  There should be a drawer or two with felt washers.

Scott

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2013, 12:01:18 AM »

Great thread!  You have created an excellent reference for us fellow "block" grinder owners. 

Just an FYI.  I recently discovered that Menards is stocking some felt washers in the hardware department.  Look for the area with regular washers in the isle with all the little hardware drawers.  There should be a drawer or two with felt washers.

Scott
That's good to know Scott, thanks.

We're suppose to get a Menards in our area. It will be good to have another source.

Thanks for looking and the encouragement.  th-smile
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2013, 09:45:38 AM »
Great stuff -- and very well documented. This will help a lot of folks.

I took the liberty of making this a "sticky", so that the info is easier to find.

Thanks again for the great detail!! thumbsup2

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2013, 10:15:19 AM »
Great stuff -- and very well documented. This will help a lot of folks.

I took the liberty of making this a "sticky", so that the info is easier to find.

Thanks again for the great detail!! thumbsup2
Thanks for the kind comments; I am enjoying this project immensely.

I have taken resistance measurements for the coils and tap, and mad a chart which I will post along with other measurements. I want to see if I can do a resistance test on the relay when it is activated, current draw [value in pictures above need to be verified, the Amp probe is an unknown].

There's more to follow, but the 'heavy' lifting is done.  billcat

13Jul24 - Fix spelling and runtogetherwords.  billcat
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 06:04:58 PM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2013, 11:44:50 AM »
This is a great thread, excellent pics and info.  Outstanding.       beerdude
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If you can't fix it with a hammer, It must be electrical.

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2013, 10:26:01 AM »
This is a great thread, excellent pics and info.  Outstanding.       beerdude

Thanks 57!

Here's a chart I put together with resistances of the Stator & Coil assemblies of 3 grinders:
  • 0.5 H.P. Model: 397.19591   [Commercial 'Crown Top']
  • Go-Blue! ?? H.P. Model: ??
  • 1.0 H.P. Model: 257.191600 [Commercial 'Crown Top']


I am calling Go-Blue! a 1 H.P. grinder, possibly Model: 257.191600 [Commercial 'Crown Top']. I want to get a 2nd opinion, hopefully Brian Kachadurian of OWWM.org has more information now. Earlier this month he said: "I think your blue grinder is the last of the Delco built machines, model number 397.19450."

I later found this from an old UK eBay listing, for a model number 397.19450:
"SEARS Craftsman Commercial 3/4 HP Bench Grinder/Polisher, Totaly Enclosed Ball BEARING, and Capacitor start, motor Specs = 115/230 Volts - 60 Hz - 6.0/3.0 AMP, - 5/8 arbor - 3580 idle RPM, - 3/4 HP NEMA rating, ship wt about 26.2lbs".

I may take readings from a restored 397.19350 grinder, to round out the list; these 2 were handy.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2013, 12:13:44 PM »
Here's a chart I put together with steady-state, current-draw of the Stator & Coil assemblies of the same 3 grinders:
  • 0.5 H.P. Model: 397.19591   [Commercial 'Crown Top']
  • Go-Blue! ?? H.P. Model: ??
  • 1.0 H.P. Model: 257.191600 [Commercial 'Crown Top']


MIN Draw


MAX Draw


AVG Draw


For fun, I'm going to hook up a vintage shunt /meter set up to see what readings that gives.

I'm thinking Go-Blue's new bearings present less load than the non-restored models. They are very quiet compared to the 1 H.P. guy, who's bearings are noticeably louder.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2013, 03:16:25 PM »
Here's additional electrical re-wire detail, schematic to follow, once I can properly name the coils.

Each terminal was cleaned by scraping, wire brush burnishing, or with emery cloth; followed with spraying with Craig Labs DeoxitD5.
http://www.caig.com/











The terminals that were serviceable are wrapped in a self-fusing tape.




Wires, switch & relay terminals are labeled to assist future servicing. Who ever was in here really buggered it up; luckily, I have a good example to follow.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2013, 02:06:28 PM »
After I checked my order status; GF's post provided the nudge to re-assemble BB and not wait for the order from ereplacementparts dot com/

I checked the order status this morning.

I had a bad feeling when I read this; actually ALL the parts are 'On Order From Manufacturer'.


 Bslap

I've been to the Sears parts site, all the items I ordered are no longer available.  :groaner:



Surprisingly good news.

My order from eReplacementparts.com has been shipped and will arrive by July 30. 16 days from order to arrival, a bit long compared to Amazon, but eReplacemnentParts claim these are original specification replacement parts. We'll see.  sharepopcorn



 th-smile
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 09:24:45 AM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2013, 04:53:44 PM »
I think that this Blue grinder (aka, Go-Blue!), is very similar/identical in shape, casting numbers, features, wiring, capacitor value, relay, and windings to the 1 H.P. Model 257.191600.

Therefore, I will begin with the reproducing of a similar label  for Go-Blue!.

It will be based off these.


I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2013, 07:05:01 PM »
The www.ereplacementparts.com order was waiting for me when we returned.

From what I can tell, these are original replacements (the Plastic Lamp Cover has the same p/n as the one on my 1/2 H.P. grinder) or direct replacements.


Plastic Lamp Cover, original left and top.




Tool rest support, original light colored. New part's hole for bolt not completely circular, but should function just fine.




New laid on top of original, exact shape, size.


Complete support, tool rest, and bolts.


Underside of HD base/cooling tray showing: p/n, cushioned foot, tool rest post set screw.




Felt washer, original top.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 07:37:01 PM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline lbgradwell

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2013, 03:01:28 PM »
I am calling Go-Blue! a 1 H.P. grinder, possibly Model: 257.191600 [Commercial 'Crown Top']. I want to get a 2nd opinion, hopefully Brian Kachadurian of OWWM.org has more information now. Earlier this month he said: "I think your blue grinder is the last of the Delco built machines, model number 397.19450."

Take this with a grain of salt (as I really don't know), but I'd wager that whatever label was originally on Go-Blue!, I think it is an Allegretti Company design. That distinctive switch almost requires it.

Delco may very well have continued producing the Allegretti design...

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2013, 08:24:39 PM »
... I think it is an Allegretti Company design. That distinctive switch almost requires it.

Delco may very well have continued producing the Allegretti design...

I'm not an expert, but the reason I'm thinking it is a 1 H.P. grinder, possibly Model: 257.191600, is the numbers [casting, relay, capacitor, bearings, coil windings and wiring] match with this 1 H.P. grinder.
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2013, 11:15:26 PM »
I decided to open up the relay to check & clean the contacts, and more importantly verify the mechanization reflects the measurements I made with a DMM.



A member of the OWWM site said the relay is a "potential relay that kicks out (opens terminals 2-4) when the motor reaches 2/3 or so of the running RPM, consequently deenergizing the capacitor". AND "Portion of the voltage across the start winding brought out by wires 31 and 34 (GRN-BRN) is applied to the relay coil terminals 3-4. When that voltage rises it energizes the relay causing the contacts to open. Therefore wire 31 (GRN) taps into the start winding to provide suitable voltage for the relay coil. The contacts should be NC to energize the start winding when at rest, i.e., with no voltage on the relay coil. If you can get to the inside of the relay check for corrosion on the contacts and clean/polish them with 600 grit emery cloth."


I removed the cover by bending the mounting bracket slightly to unscrew it, because the screw head was not turning - it was 'cemented' in place.


Here is a drawing of the internals.


Terminal #2 pulls out of the relay body; revealing some need of cleaning/burnishing.


Burnished and cleaned. (Out of actual sequence, this shot shows the movable contacts already cleaned and back in place)


Removal of contact arm pull-down spring. This keeps the points open without power (Normally Open NO).


Contact arm removed, showing both points need cleaning. Not bad at all though.
When power is applied, the RH contact arm is pulled down by the field of the relay-coil, rotating on the arm on the 2 nylon pins, raising the LH of the contact arm. When the LH raises, the points of terminals #2 and #4 close.


Reverse side of contact arm, showing pin and spring between arm and bottom of pin.


Close up of terminal #2 points (NO).




The screw head and terminal labels received a dab of red and clear nail polish, respectively, to secure them.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 11:37:31 AM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2013, 09:57:20 AM »
Voltage test set-up.




For more discussion on the relay and replacement cross-reference, follow this link. http://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=136267&p=915693#p915693
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2013, 04:19:46 PM »
I received a piece of friendly and good advice on the OWWM  Everything Electrical forum. In the even the relay or centrifugal switch contacts stick, a slow-blow fuse will OPEN, protecting the grinder/wiring.

I am going to add a slow-blow fuse before the ON/OFF switch. The writer advises 10 - 12 Amps for this 1 H.P. grinder.

I picked up a pack of Buss glass slow-blow 10 amp fuses and a panel mounted holder like the one below.


I have drilled and filed 'D' shaped holes before, not accurate/pretty and I can't spend the $$ for the proper chassis punch.

So, I looked on OWWM and on Google for another way to make the 'D' shaped hole in the back of the cover, without much success.

The large diameter is ~ 0.5".

Does any one have a 'trick' they'd care to share?

Thanks.

Mike
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2014, 11:58:20 PM »
The hole is drilled to fit, a small dab of epoxy to keep the washers and holder from twisting.

Pig-tails are soldered to the holder, solder-less connectors allow dis-assembly. The Hot leg (1) of the power cord is cut and the fuse holder is spliced in-line. See yellow circled area below.

Next time the mounting location will be about 1/4" lower to give more clearance of the internal casting rib.

Several OEM 90-terminals that were wrapped in self fusing silicone are replaced because the wrap was becoming loose.


View of external location with 15 Amp glass fuses.


This big boy ate up and spit out that 15 Amp fuse. A ceramic slow-blow 15 Amp, as specified on the label, keeps it running.  billcat


Edited 14Mar29 - Forgot to show the reason to add a fuse. If a Start-Up Sw or Relay malfunctions, the fuse will prevent the following terminal condition. Excessive current draw and motor over temperature. I suspect that's what happened in the 3 pictures below, but the current owner hasn't been able to confim or test.

The fuse is cheap insurance that I will add to all my grinders.




Anyway, here it is in the latest stage.






It's making nice whirring noises and pushing a lot of air around the bench.


Possible changes - tool rests like other Commercial Block grinders, add a vintage goose neck lamp [not a CM].

Go-Blue!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 09:25:25 PM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline softailgarage

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2014, 03:51:44 PM »
Man Mike, You've gone into a lot more detail over here, I need to hang out more. Nice job on the grinder.
Dealer- Cornwell Quality Tools

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2014, 08:58:44 PM »
... tail,

Thanks!

Good to see you here on the 'dark side'!  :mr:

Back at GJ, I don't advertise I am active here. I have heard that can get your post removed, thread locked, or you suspended/banned (?).

Any way, you may recognize some GJers here. Seems we see GJ people from time to time discover us.

I like it here because along with having a depth of technical knowledge, people are helpful, positive, and friendly.

BTW - what CM tool used your avatar?   thumbsup2
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2014, 06:24:10 PM »
Here's a shot of Go-Blue! in the growing grinder line-up.



It's getting used more and more, now that I am retired.  th-smile
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2014, 12:04:33 AM »
The hole is drilled to fit, a small dab of epoxy to keep the washers and holder from twisting.

Pig-tails are soldered to the holder, solder-less connectors allow dis-assembly. The Hot leg (1) of the power cord is cut and the fuse holder is spliced in-line. See yellow circled area below.

Next time the mounting location will be about 1/4" lower to give more clearance of the internal casting rib.

Several OEM 90-terminals that were wrapped in self fusing silicone are replaced because the wrap was becoming loose.


View of external location with 15 Amp glass fuses.


This big boy ate up and spit out that 15 Amp fuse. A ceramic slow-blow 15 Amp, as specified on the label, keeps it running.  billcat


Edited 14Mar29 - Forgot to show the reason to add a fuse. If a Start-Up Sw or Relay malfunctions, the fuse will prevent the following terminal condition. Excessive current draw and motor over temperature. I suspect that's what happened in the 3 pictures below, but the current owner hasn't been able to confim or test.

The fuse is cheap insurance that I will add to all my grinders.




Anyway, here it is in the latest stage.






It's making nice whirring noises and pushing a lot of air around the bench.


Possible changes - tool rests like other Commercial Block grinders, add a vintage goose neck lamp [not a CM].

Go-Blue!




I don't suppose you have any extra tool posts for grinders like the one pictured do you? I need one side or the other, but forget which side. I need the 2 piece type like I see here.
You boys better hold on cause i'm gonna have to stand on it!

NEED A 1/2" BONNEY STREAMLINE COMBINATION AND ANY OVER 13/16" TOO!



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Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2014, 09:51:27 AM »
UB Those are on 'loan' from some other Block waiting it's turn.

I presently don't have any I am parting-out, but I'll start a list and put you at the top. I am working towards 'thinning the heard' as it were, and may have what you are looking for.

Also, I'm in talks about a 1/2 HP Block model 397.19460 for parts; but, alas it too is missing both tool rests. angryguyx

Now, excuse me while I go start another list.  fishslap

Back with that list.


I should've put the 3-piece tools rests I'm looking for!  :groaner:
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 10:13:14 AM by torqueman2002 »
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

Offline bonneyman

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2015, 08:16:17 PM »

The contacts cleaned up, and I got to use the diamond tipped terminal tool, A spray of Deoxit D5 removed any corrosion left and lubricated the contacts.




You know, a cheap mans equivalent to this is used emory boards. I snag them from the wife when she's done using them on her nails and before she tosses them. They still have useable grit, and can be ground down to narrow ends with a dremel tool.

I use them for sanding small parts, or things in tight spots, or contactor contacts if I don't have the right replacement and I'm out in the boonies. FYI.

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2015, 11:57:18 PM »
Man that`s just too nice to use. Fantastic job thumbsup2
There is a very fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.

Does the need justify the want ? Or does the want suffice?

Offline torqueman2002

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Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2015, 10:40:05 PM »
Thanks man.

It's not used often, but that bad boy earns it's living when heavy wire wheeling is called for.  th-smile
I am a Blockhead, Man! http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-Grinders-Why-the-Fuss

"I got to show the young boys how not to do it. I haven't showed them everything not to do, yet. It's a big job!" - Otto Kilcher

"Well, I don't wanna be a superman, I just wanna go somewhere, use my hands, and keep it simple. Oh real simple" - Keb' Mo'

The Garage Gazette

Re: Block Grinder rescue - UPDATE: Go-Blue! 1 H.P. Model 257.191600
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2015, 10:40:05 PM »

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