PVC for compressed air

[Uncle Buck]

For the time when folks want to discuss whether or not to install PVC airlines in their shop I am including the following link to the OSHA we site that details their position on PVC airline installations. Hopefully the link will be good for a while.

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

[pipehack]

Just do it in copper.. It's not that much or difficult. On a scale of 1 to 10 it's about a 4.

[Uncle Buck]

True words there!

[djbohn]

I piped with 2" PVC. t gave me another ~30 gal air. Teaches you good cementing practice too :-

[Itzkwik]

DJ, pllease read the link Uncle Buck posted above. You do NOT want to have PVC airlines in a shop. It's not rated for air. When, not if, it breaks, it's going to be ugly.

[RJAY]

I piped with 2" PVC. t gave me another ~30 gal air. Teaches you good cementing practice too :-

IMO PVC is unsafe. Want to use plastic, use plastic that is made for it.

AS far as using 2 inch lines again IMO it's a waste. The reason being, is the compressor output (CFM ) can not provide any more or less output. Therefor if your compressor pumps out 20 cfm to fill up a 40 cfm tank it will take 2 min. a 60 cfm 3 min.. My point being a bigger capacity takes longer to fill. Where is the benefit? Need more air? Spin the compressor faster or the best way get a larger compressor.

Note: Adding air pressure to this explanation will not change a thing.

[flashpuppy]

You guys solder your copper lines, or what?  How about that black iron pipe?  Can you thread the smaller diameters of it without an expensive pipe threader?

[Uncle Buck]

Sure, you could always hand thread it with the correct sized pipe threading dies and a handle. 

[flashpuppy]

Sure, you could always hand thread it with the correct sized pipe threading dies and a handle. 

DUH!!!!!!    frustrated

[Uncle Buck]

Sure, you could always hand thread it with the correct sized pipe threading dies and a handle. 

DUH!!!!!!    frustrated

Somethin tells me you already knew that though for some reason! 

[pipehack]

Personally.... If and that's a BIG IF, I had the money I would pipe the whole deal in brass pipe just because I want to. Plus there would be no chance of rust in the pipe.

[RJAY]

Personally.... If and that's a BIG IF, I had the money I would pipe the whole deal in brass pipe just because I want to. Plus there would be no chance of rust in the pipe.

I was thinking of using sprinkler tubing inside of black pipe. Your thoughts?

[Uncle Buck]

Personally.... If and that's a BIG IF, I had the money I would pipe the whole deal in brass pipe just because I want to. Plus there would be no chance of rust in the pipe.

I was thinking of using sprinkler tubing inside of black pipe. Your thoughts?

I think you should skip the sprinkler tubing, and just run the black Iron pipe and call it good! What would you gain with the addition of the sprinkler tubing? It would seem to me that the only thing the sprinkler tubing would do is act as a line restriction inside the black iron pipe anyway.  shrug

[pipehack]

Personally.... If and that's a BIG IF, I had the money I would pipe the whole deal in brass pipe just because I want to. Plus there would be no chance of rust in the pipe.

 it would be one of those things just to say "look at this!" That's all. Be careful with black iron. It will rust. Do it in copper. It will last a lifetime. For sure.  thumbsup

[RJAY]

Reason I mentioned this my shop was done in black pope in 1988. The inside is pitted and has scale. Of course the pipe is behind sheetrock All the new line I installed was 3/4 copper.

[Wantedabiggergarage]

I thought pvc pipe, would get you banned, here.  LOL

There is or was, an ABS pipe (especially colored), that was made for air.  But when I researched it, long ago, it was going to cost as much as metal.

Now, I still see arguments, on both sides, about soldering copper, verse brazing copper.

[RJAY]

I soldered my copper. No leaks in 10 years. I run 175 psi.

[e-tek]

And DJ was never heard from again......
 
It's OK DJ - the anti-PVC guys like to over-state the drawbacks....kinda like the global warming crowd!!!   (Looks like a ghost to me..)


As for me, I've had a change of heart after carefully considering all the options and the pro's&cons. Although I used black iron (and am not worried about rust or scale), I would now recommend copper to anyone who wants the best of all worlds. Score another one for garage forums!!

[Uncle Buck]

And DJ was never heard from again......
 
It's OK DJ - the anti-PVC guys like to over-state the drawbacks....kinda like the global warming crowd!!!   (Looks like a ghost to me..)

Yes, very popular line of thinking, IE, blown out of perportion etc. If you ever get to see the resultant damages from a line rupture then the vision clears and a moment of total clarity presents itself! Shrapnel blown under force is a real bummer for your day. 

BTW: Happy to hear you decided to go with other than PVC. 

[Frederick Flintstone]

Yes, very popular line of thinking, IE, blown out of perportion etc. If you ever get to see the resultant damages from a line rupture then the vision clears and a moment of total clarity presents itself! Shrapnel blown under force is a real bummer for your day. 

BTW: Happy to hear you decided to go with other than PVC. 

Let me start by saying I plan on using copper pipe, if I ever have the money, once my shop is up and going.
Over on “the other forum” that “torque1st” always chimes in about how bad PVC is. In wasting several hours on the Internet one day, I did extensive searching on the subject. After typing in all types of variants of ”PVC compressed air explosions”, I always came up with the same 21-year-old OSHA document. When I did an image search on all the same variants, I did not find ANY photos of the aftermath of a PVC air failure. I did however find dozens of kick ass spud gun designs.
I buy the fact that an impact can damage it. And I will bow to the combined knowledge of others: but I would really like to se at least one photo of a PVC pipe explosion. (preferably many)
People use or want to use PVC because it is cheap and easy. Black pipe or copper is not.
Pex-al-pex (the ONLY pex rated for air) is easy and quick but the price will give you heart failure once you factor in all the $10 a piece fittings.

[rvannatta]

While my respect for OSHA opinions isn't very high,   a few years ago I saw some of that plastic crap half way accross a mill yard
for no special reason.   While it didn't hit anyone,  it made a fairly alarming sound as it traveled.     That stuff isn't welcome in my shop under any cumstances.

[Frederick Flintstone]

Yes, very popular line of thinking, IE, blown out of perportion etc. If you ever get to see the resultant damages from a line rupture then the vision clears and a moment of total clarity presents itself! Shrapnel blown under force is a real bummer for your day. 

BTW: Happy to hear you decided to go with other than PVC. 

Let me start by saying I plan on using copper pipe, if I ever have the money, once my shop is up and going.
Over on “the other forum” that “torque1st” always chimes in about how bad PVC is. In wasting several hours on the Internet one day, I did extensive searching on the subject. After typing in all types of variants of ”PVC compressed air explosions”, I always came up with the same 21-year-old OSHA document. When I did an image search on all the same variants, I did not find ANY photos of the aftermath of a PVC air failure. I did however find dozens of kick ass spud gun designs.
I buy the fact that an impact can damage it. And I will bow to the combined knowledge of others: but I would really like to se at least one photo of a PVC pipe explosion. (preferably many)
People use or want to use PVC because it is cheap and easy. Black pipe or copper is not.
Pex-al-pex (the ONLY pex rated for air) is easy and quick but the price will give you heart failure once you factor in all the $10 a piece fittings.

I did a little more digging yet again and have yet to see photographic evidence of a single PVC pipe explosion.
The OSHA document is now 23 years old.
With all the people making spud guns out of PVC, I am sure the over pressure of combustion, should have blown some goobers hand off by now. (Hey isn’t MORE better?) I have seen spud guns made with the cheetah bead seater tanks and PVC.
I would just like to see more evidence.

[Steve]

I did a little more digging yet again and have yet to see photographic evidence of a single PVC pipe explosion.
The OSHA document is now 23 years old.
With all the people making spud guns out of PVC, I am sure the over pressure of combustion, should have blown some goobers hand off by now. (Hey isn’t MORE better?) I have seen spud guns made with the cheetah bead seater tanks and PVC.
I would just like to see more evidence.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/ruptured-pvc-air-lines-what-not-do-230253/

[Steve]

Obama likes PVC pipe...

[Frederick Flintstone]

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/ruptured-pvc-air-lines-what-not-do-230253/

Nice to see one incedent photo documented. all the posts were stll filled with the "it happened in my brothers shop" though.

[Uncle Buck]

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/ruptured-pvc-air-lines-what-not-do-230253/

Nice to see one incedent photo documented. all the posts were stll filled with the "it happened in my brothers shop" though.

I have seen the damage left behind when a schedule 80 pipe broke at the ceiling level in an industrial plant, but I have no picture to share. For people that make their living dealing with employee safety issues in occupational settings the persistent belief that PVC pipe works fine for compressed air defense gets really old. I think the most frustrating statements are those indicating if one has never seen the aftermath of a PVC line failure then the warnings against it's use are not valid enough to heed. Essentially if I have not seen it or seen pictures of the aftermath then there is not a issue.

The prohibitions against using ANY type of plastic pipe, schedule whatever, unless labeled as sitable for use in compressed air systems were not cooked up by OSHA. Those rules originally came from the plastic pipe industry, the manufacturers of these products. One must wonder what equips all of the various minds weighing in with statements supporting the use of plastic pipe ( that is not identified as suitable for this application) as perfectly fine for the application. I guess they must be correct and the manufacturers of PVC pipe have clearly got it wrong.

Lets think about that a bit more. If you owned the company that made PVC pipe why would you voluntarily present your product as unsuitable for an application that could/would result in the sale of a huge amount of your product effectively stating that using your product in compressed air applications is hazardous and could result in physical harm to bystanders in the highly likely event of line failure.
Explain that please. The manufacturer voluntarily sacrificed the sale of their product for compressed air applications by proclaiming the product as unsuitable for handling compressed air.

First, the manufacturer identifies PVC for use in compressed air systems as unsuitable because the engineering, composition of the material, and product liability costs in the event of line failure far exceed the benefit they might realize by selling the pipe as suitable for compressed air applications. Too bad folks don't look at the issue this way. Why would an industry turn their back on potential revenue from the sale of their product if it was safe for the application as many assert? It would not happen if the monetary benefit of it's sale outweighed the potential liability of lawsuits that might follow the failure of the product.

I never understand why so many guys persist in wanting to use PVC waterpipe in compressed air applications. To me, what these guys are really saying is that they have  better knowledge of the limitations of this product than the true experts that joined forces to establish suitable parameters for the use of the product. The people that set on ANSI committies NEC committees, NFPA committies and hundreds more just like them are considered to be the smartest in their field or they would not be a part of committies like this in the first place. So what makes homeowner Joe so smart as to say he has a better understanding of the working parameters or suitability for the material than the company that produced it and the true industry experts that originally deemed the product as unfit for air applications.   

[Frederick Flintstone]

Let me start off by saying I am not advocating plastic air lines period!
I am simply tired of not seeing any really concrete empirical data on the subject. I am sick to death of the “it happened in my brother’s shop” comments. In this ligations society if the pipe industry wanted to avoid having their product used as air lines; you can bet your bottom that you would have “NOT FOR USE WITH COMPRESSED AIR” written on the side along with schedule 40 blah blah blah….. Some manufactures may put that on there, I don’t know. I have not been to every home depot in the nation reading pipe.
By the same token if it was safe to use they would also be touting it for that use.

IMO one could minimize risk (not make safe) and use PVC in some applications. (Not mine)
Cost is the only reason to consider it.
With black pipe at over a buck a foot and copper somewhere north of $3 foot with PVC at pennies a foot it would be a saver.

[pipehack]

I'm not an advocate of using P.V.C. for anything. The stuff is garbage. Should have never been allowed to be used for plumbing either.

[Uncle Buck]

I'm not an advocate of using P.V.C. for anything. The stuff is garbage. Should have never been allowed to be used for plumbing either.

You said it brother.

[Muddy]

Obama likes PVC pipe...

 

Ive seen a guy bulid the framing of a calf hutch completly out of schecule 40! 

[Wantedabiggergarage]

Should have never been allowed to be used for plumbing either.

I wouldn't go that far, as plumbing,  it saved some lives of some friends of mine.  (it was used as a mister/sprinkler setup in a friends basement snake/lizard room, when a fire broke out in the wall of the adjoining garage.  The pipe was melted and water was pouring out onto the fire, slowing it down)   They  had removed the batteries from the fire alarm as it was acting as a dead battery (chirping).  It turned out when he put a nail in the wall to hang a clock in the shop, he nicked an electrical wire and it was melting insulation and eventually caught.  They were lucky, the two year old woke them up.

[strik9]

Ok, a silly question from me then.

Lets say that when I build my shop (where there is no 220VAC service) I am limited to a smaller 120 compressor.    A low draw compressor is all I will be able to use.

I would like to increase capacity of the tank by placing stretches of 4" or 6" sch. 80 inside cement  footings and such.  A steel tank would be scrapper bait and I would like to place the compressor away from the shop in a secure outbuilding.  I hate to listen to those things run all day.  All tubing and fittings outside the cement would be steel pipe.  Of course drain valves for  the tanks would be installed before burying the plastic in the walls and such.

Low pressure paint guns and the blow gun would be the main air tools used, maybe a 1/2 impact for removing tires.

[Itzkwik]

Strik, from a safety standpoint you would be fine with the PVC inside the footings. I think the problems with  PVC are caused by UV light causing the exposed pipe to become brittle. What would concern me would be the moisture building up in the large pipe in your footings. It would be the lowest point of your lines and you would have no way to drain them.

[Uncle Buck]

Strik, from a safety standpoint you would be fine with the PVC inside the footings. I think the problems with  PVC are caused by UV light causing the exposed pipe to become brittle. What would concern me would be the moisture building up in the large pipe in your footings. It would be the lowest point of your lines and you would have no way to drain them.

Actually UV light has nothing to do with the PVC pipe issue at all. The stuff was simply not made for use in compressed air systems.

[scooby074]

Oil does a number on PVC as well.

I'd never use unapproved pvc for air. I always get a laugh at those that argue its safe. There is a reason OSHA and the pipe companies specifically forbid it.

[BigBossman]

In a large shop like a dealership metal pipe is the best way to go. For a small shop like mine 25/40 I just have a reel located beside the compressor in the corner and reel out up to 100 feet of air hose. The hose may need to be replaced every few years but thats ok. PVC will get soft as the temp goes up so dont use it with air pressure cause you are asking for trouble.

[dawg]

In a large shop like a dealership metal pipe is the best way to go. For a small shop like mine 25/40 I just have a reel located beside the compressor in the corner and reel out up to 100 feet of air hose. The hose may need to be replaced every few years but thats ok. PVC will get soft as the temp goes up so dont use it with air pressure cause you are asking for trouble.

I think more than the hose will need to be replaced in such a system without moisture filters. Your air tools also take on moisture and prematurely fail. Some people TRY to remove moisture by placing a filtering system coming right out of the air tank, but the air needs to be cooled before moisture can be removed.

Sorry, but this is why I never buy used air tools unless I am sure how they were set up.

Steve

[BigBossman]

Who said I didnt have moisture filters. I have one at the tank an another near the end of the hose. It works for me

[dawg]

Well, to give you the benefit of the doubt, you haven't said what part of the country you live. Some areas of the country don't have a lot of moisture in the air and therefore don't require a lot of filtering. But around here, that set up won't remove moisture from the air that is safe enough for air tools. In physics, the air must be cooled before attempting to remove the moisture, otherwise you are not accomplishing a thing.

Look I'm just giving you some advice, take it or leave it.

Steve

[cruzn57]

I have used PVC for yrs, with no issues ever!  ( talking 30+yrs)
BUT.... I  am installing "Rapid air"  tubing in my garage,  100ft tubing was $50, fittings were from $1.50 to $3.50 ea.
very easy install,  works great, ( not done yet)  have about 1/2  the garage plumbed,  only issue is how to securely mount quick disconnect.
 here is a link for fittings, at a reasonable price, I've used these fittings for race cars, home air supply,  water lines, etc.

http://www.stcvalve.com/Push_In_Fitting.htm

[pepi]

So why are you removing the PVC if it is so wonderful?  That PVC thing sounds great get to redo the airlines over and over....... Personally I'd like to do mundane stuff once and be done with it. Water pipe does that, but that's just me touch it once do it right the first time.

[TWX]

I had a 1/2" Tee fail where the brass fitting screwed in, developing about a 3/4" long crack.  My current compressor tops off at about 120psi, but I'm strongly thinking about getting two-stage 175psi model, so copper will be it when it's time.  Probably "L" 1/2" or 3/4".  My shop has a flat roof and I eventually want to finish it, so I need to pull the copper through holes drilled through the 2x12 joists, so soft "L" copper is probably the best choice for my application.

[strik9]

There is a larger tire shop near me that has about 50' of 6" sch 80 PVC run in the rafters with 3/4" drops at different areas of the shop.   All drops have drains.    As far as I know and from what I have seen they have no issues with plastic in over a decade.     It is fed by two standard 60 gal box store compressors, once charged up it is a large 'tank' and takes a while to start the compressors again.

I can see from a safety POV that is not ideal but from a practical POV it has served them well.
       Like many things in life you make your choices and they did.   Without ever reading any OSHA regs or any other related documents.     I'll bet I could never convince the owner his setup is deemed unsafe for the materials he used.

[pepi]

I have never read OSHA myself and not sure they have all the answers they think they do, but sometimes common sense in the motivator. People can plumb their airlines with soda straws as far as I care, for me steel or copper makes good sense.

 In life you make your choices, some choose to drive, text, talk on their cells phones, read a news paper, eat a 20 course meal behind the wheel. Does that work for them sure would I want to drive next to them, not me?

Rock on
Greg

[strik9]

Personally I want a storage tank or two inside the footings and correctly rated rubber hoses everywhere else.
    I like a flexible setup, but somehow air tools will be a low priority for me.    I can't stand a compressor running all day.

     If I could find a way to air up tires and run a paint gun occasionaly without a compressor I'd be using that.   Alas, the best option is still a compressor so that will have to do.

[Alfred E. Newman]

soft copper will work. although if bought from a home improvement store, it most likely will NOT be 100% round.
you'll need to go to a HVAC wholesale house to get a better grade.

[Farmall450]

Just do it in copper.. It's not that much or difficult. On a scale of 1 to 10 it's about a 4.

Or Black Iron! 

[FuzzFace2]

Just do it in copper.. It's not that much or difficult. On a scale of 1 to 10 it's about a 4.

Or Black Iron! 

Thing is with black pipe is it rusts and that will cause issues with your filters.

Over this last week the wife and I were house hunting in N.C. and 1 of the things I wanted was a 2+ car garage or land I could build a garage on.
Well of the many places we looked at 2 had garages with plastic pipe hooked to compressors. 1 of the units was a full size 80 gal 175 psi unit. If I was to buy either one, unlikely at this time, I would replace the plastic pipe as I don’t trust it.
Dave ----

[Uncle Buck]

Just do it in copper.. It's not that much or difficult. On a scale of 1 to 10 it's about a 4.

Or Black Iron! 

Thing is with black pipe is it rusts and that will cause issues with your filters.

Over this last week the wife and I were house hunting in N.C. and 1 of the things I wanted was a 2+ car garage or land I could build a garage on.
Well of the many places we looked at 2 had garages with plastic pipe hooked to compressors. 1 of the units was a full size 80 gal 175 psi unit. If I was to buy either one, unlikely at this time, I would replace the plastic pipe as I don’t trust it.
Dave ----

plus 1 here, spot on with everything you said! 

[TWX]

I used the sch40 PVC that was already in the shop when we bought it for a couple of years, it started failing at the fittings, not in the length of pipe itself.  The compressor at the time couldn't really get above 120psi though, so it wasn't terribly risky.

When the 155psi unit went in I did the upgrade.  Soft copper from the big-box store worked fine actually.  Of the three readily available grades I went with the middle.

[mustanggarage]

I used a combination of rapid air and airnet.  the ALR tubing.  the ALR is aluminum, it is designed specifically for compressed air systems, doesn't rust.  uses quick connectors so you don't need to solder or thread the pipes.  you just cut them with a tubing cutter and stick it together. very easy and it looks good.  comes in many sizes.  I used 3/4 inch.
http://www.rapidairproducts.com/alr.asp

[Xicaque]

Cooper all the way!