Author Topic: PVC for compressed air  (Read 20629 times)

Offline Wantedabiggergarage

  • Hunt and peck king
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 4227
  • Location: Independence, in the state of Missery.
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2010, 01:40:12 AM »
I thought pvc pipe, would get you banned, here.  LOL

There is or was, an ABS pipe (especially colored), that was made for air.  But when I researched it, long ago, it was going to cost as much as metal.

Now, I still see arguments, on both sides, about soldering copper, verse brazing copper.
Well, I guess a rule disallows, my use of a Dennis Leary song as my signature, LOL.

Offline RJAY

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 529
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2010, 07:20:06 PM »
I soldered my copper. No leaks in 10 years. I run 175 psi.

Offline e-tek

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 281
  • Location: Sa-scrathc-my-wand, CAN-A-Duh!
  • Resto-geek
    • E-tek Racing & Restorations
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2010, 10:20:12 PM »
And DJ was never heard from again...... frustratedx
 
It's OK DJ - the anti-PVC guys like to over-state the drawbacks....kinda like the global warming crowd!!! happyx  (Looks like a ghost to me..)


As for me, I've had a change of heart after carefully considering all the options and the pro's&cons. Although I used black iron (and am not worried about rust or scale), I would now recommend copper to anyone who wants the best of all worlds. Score another one for garage forums!!

Offline Uncle Buck

  • Site Owner/ Founding Spammer
  • Administrator
  • Knows nut from bolt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 13399
  • Location: Kansas-Flyover Country!
  • The name of my small shop is the Skunkworks!
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2010, 12:01:45 PM »
And DJ was never heard from again...... frustratedx
 
It's OK DJ - the anti-PVC guys like to over-state the drawbacks....kinda like the global warming crowd!!! happyx  (Looks like a ghost to me..)

Yes, very popular line of thinking, IE, blown out of perportion etc. If you ever get to see the resultant damages from a line rupture then the vision clears and a moment of total clarity presents itself! Shrapnel blown under force is a real bummer for your day.  :o

BTW: Happy to hear you decided to go with other than PVC.  thumbsup2
You boys better hold on cause i'm gonna have to stand on it!

NEED A 1/2" BONNEY STREAMLINE COMBINATION AND ANY OVER 13/16" TOO!



Andrew Jackson quote: But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing.

Offline Frederick Flintstone

  • Tool Slut
  • Knows what a screwdriver is
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 5588
  • Location: MOFN Michigan
  • Former grand master curmudgeon
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2011, 10:09:19 PM »
Yes, very popular line of thinking, IE, blown out of perportion etc. If you ever get to see the resultant damages from a line rupture then the vision clears and a moment of total clarity presents itself! Shrapnel blown under force is a real bummer for your day.  :o

BTW: Happy to hear you decided to go with other than PVC.  thumbsup2

Let me start by saying I plan on using copper pipe, if I ever have the money, once my shop is up and going.
Over on “the other forum” that “torque1st” always chimes in about how bad PVC is. In wasting several hours on the Internet one day, I did extensive searching on the subject. After typing in all types of variants of ”PVC compressed air explosions”, I always came up with the same 21-year-old OSHA document. When I did an image search on all the same variants, I did not find ANY photos of the aftermath of a PVC air failure. I did however find dozens of kick ass spud gun designs.
I buy the fact that an impact can damage it. And I will bow to the combined knowledge of others: but I would really like to se at least one photo of a PVC pipe explosion. (preferably many)
People use or want to use PVC because it is cheap and easy. Black pipe or copper is not.
Pex-al-pex (the ONLY pex rated for air) is easy and quick but the price will give you heart failure once you factor in all the $10 a piece fittings.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
Nothing is going to get better. It's not.”
― Dr. Seuss


MY TOY    http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/my-digital-camo-flatfendered-tj-616304/

Offline rvannatta

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 1639
  • Location: Rainier, OR
    • Van Natta Forestry
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2011, 10:39:46 PM »
While my respect for OSHA opinions isn't very high,   a few years ago I saw some of that plastic crap half way accross a mill yard
for no special reason.   While it didn't hit anyone,  it made a fairly alarming sound as it traveled.     That stuff isn't welcome in my shop under any cumstances.

Offline Frederick Flintstone

  • Tool Slut
  • Knows what a screwdriver is
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 5588
  • Location: MOFN Michigan
  • Former grand master curmudgeon
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2012, 02:46:41 PM »
Yes, very popular line of thinking, IE, blown out of perportion etc. If you ever get to see the resultant damages from a line rupture then the vision clears and a moment of total clarity presents itself! Shrapnel blown under force is a real bummer for your day.  :o

BTW: Happy to hear you decided to go with other than PVC.  thumbsup2

Let me start by saying I plan on using copper pipe, if I ever have the money, once my shop is up and going.
Over on “the other forum” that “torque1st” always chimes in about how bad PVC is. In wasting several hours on the Internet one day, I did extensive searching on the subject. After typing in all types of variants of ”PVC compressed air explosions”, I always came up with the same 21-year-old OSHA document. When I did an image search on all the same variants, I did not find ANY photos of the aftermath of a PVC air failure. I did however find dozens of kick ass spud gun designs.
I buy the fact that an impact can damage it. And I will bow to the combined knowledge of others: but I would really like to se at least one photo of a PVC pipe explosion. (preferably many)
People use or want to use PVC because it is cheap and easy. Black pipe or copper is not.
Pex-al-pex (the ONLY pex rated for air) is easy and quick but the price will give you heart failure once you factor in all the $10 a piece fittings.


I did a little more digging yet again and have yet to see photographic evidence of a single PVC pipe explosion.
The OSHA document is now 23 years old.
With all the people making spud guns out of PVC, I am sure the over pressure of combustion, should have blown some goobers hand off by now. (Hey isn’t MORE better?) I have seen spud guns made with the cheetah bead seater tanks and PVC.
I would just like to see more evidence.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
Nothing is going to get better. It's not.”
― Dr. Seuss


MY TOY    http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/my-digital-camo-flatfendered-tj-616304/

Offline Steve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 657
    • Garage Bulletin
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2012, 05:59:31 PM »
Quote from: Frederick Flintstone
I did a little more digging yet again and have yet to see photographic evidence of a single PVC pipe explosion.
The OSHA document is now 23 years old.
With all the people making spud guns out of PVC, I am sure the over pressure of combustion, should have blown some goobers hand off by now. (Hey isn’t MORE better?) I have seen spud guns made with the cheetah bead seater tanks and PVC.
I would just like to see more evidence.


http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/ruptured-pvc-air-lines-what-not-do-230253/


Offline Steve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 657
    • Garage Bulletin
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2012, 06:01:21 PM »
Obama likes PVC pipe...

Offline Frederick Flintstone

  • Tool Slut
  • Knows what a screwdriver is
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 5588
  • Location: MOFN Michigan
  • Former grand master curmudgeon
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2012, 07:24:17 PM »
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/ruptured-pvc-air-lines-what-not-do-230253/


Nice to see one incedent photo documented. all the posts were stll filled with the "it happened in my brothers shop" though.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
Nothing is going to get better. It's not.”
― Dr. Seuss


MY TOY    http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/my-digital-camo-flatfendered-tj-616304/

Offline Uncle Buck

  • Site Owner/ Founding Spammer
  • Administrator
  • Knows nut from bolt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 13399
  • Location: Kansas-Flyover Country!
  • The name of my small shop is the Skunkworks!
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2012, 12:55:34 AM »
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/ruptured-pvc-air-lines-what-not-do-230253/


Nice to see one incedent photo documented. all the posts were stll filled with the "it happened in my brothers shop" though.


I have seen the damage left behind when a schedule 80 pipe broke at the ceiling level in an industrial plant, but I have no picture to share. For people that make their living dealing with employee safety issues in occupational settings the persistent belief that PVC pipe works fine for compressed air defense gets really old. I think the most frustrating statements are those indicating if one has never seen the aftermath of a PVC line failure then the warnings against it's use are not valid enough to heed. Essentially if I have not seen it or seen pictures of the aftermath then there is not a issue.

The prohibitions against using ANY type of plastic pipe, schedule whatever, unless labeled as sitable for use in compressed air systems were not cooked up by OSHA. Those rules originally came from the plastic pipe industry, the manufacturers of these products. One must wonder what equips all of the various minds weighing in with statements supporting the use of plastic pipe ( that is not identified as suitable for this application) as perfectly fine for the application. I guess they must be correct and the manufacturers of PVC pipe have clearly got it wrong.

Lets think about that a bit more. If you owned the company that made PVC pipe why would you voluntarily present your product as unsuitable for an application that could/would result in the sale of a huge amount of your product effectively stating that using your product in compressed air applications is hazardous and could result in physical harm to bystanders in the highly likely event of line failure.
Explain that please. The manufacturer voluntarily sacrificed the sale of their product for compressed air applications by proclaiming the product as unsuitable for handling compressed air.

First, the manufacturer identifies PVC for use in compressed air systems as unsuitable because the engineering, composition of the material, and product liability costs in the event of line failure far exceed the benefit they might realize by selling the pipe as suitable for compressed air applications. Too bad folks don't look at the issue this way. Why would an industry turn their back on potential revenue from the sale of their product if it was safe for the application as many assert? It would not happen if the monetary benefit of it's sale outweighed the potential liability of lawsuits that might follow the failure of the product.

I never understand why so many guys persist in wanting to use PVC waterpipe in compressed air applications. To me, what these guys are really saying is that they have  better knowledge of the limitations of this product than the true experts that joined forces to establish suitable parameters for the use of the product. The people that set on ANSI committies NEC committees, NFPA committies and hundreds more just like them are considered to be the smartest in their field or they would not be a part of committies like this in the first place. So what makes homeowner Joe so smart as to say he has a better understanding of the working parameters or suitability for the material than the company that produced it and the true industry experts that originally deemed the product as unfit for air applications.    shrugx
You boys better hold on cause i'm gonna have to stand on it!

NEED A 1/2" BONNEY STREAMLINE COMBINATION AND ANY OVER 13/16" TOO!



Andrew Jackson quote: But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing.

Offline Frederick Flintstone

  • Tool Slut
  • Knows what a screwdriver is
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 5588
  • Location: MOFN Michigan
  • Former grand master curmudgeon
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2012, 10:14:43 AM »
Let me start off by saying I am not advocating plastic air lines period!
I am simply tired of not seeing any really concrete empirical data on the subject. I am sick to death of the “it happened in my brother’s shop” comments. In this ligations society if the pipe industry wanted to avoid having their product used as air lines; you can bet your bottom that you would have “NOT FOR USE WITH COMPRESSED AIR” written on the side along with schedule 40 blah blah blah….. Some manufactures may put that on there, I don’t know. I have not been to every home depot in the nation reading pipe.
By the same token if it was safe to use they would also be touting it for that use.

IMO one could minimize risk (not make safe) and use PVC in some applications. (Not mine)
Cost is the only reason to consider it.
With black pipe at over a buck a foot and copper somewhere north of $3 foot with PVC at pennies a foot it would be a saver.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
Nothing is going to get better. It's not.”
― Dr. Seuss


MY TOY    http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/my-digital-camo-flatfendered-tj-616304/

Offline pipehack

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 1389
  • Location: Chicago S.suburbs
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2012, 06:55:45 PM »
I'm not an advocate of using P.V.C. for anything. The stuff is garbage. Should have never been allowed to be used for plumbing either.
I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream. That's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor.... And surviving.

Offline Uncle Buck

  • Site Owner/ Founding Spammer
  • Administrator
  • Knows nut from bolt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 13399
  • Location: Kansas-Flyover Country!
  • The name of my small shop is the Skunkworks!
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2012, 07:05:28 PM »
I'm not an advocate of using P.V.C. for anything. The stuff is garbage. Should have never been allowed to be used for plumbing either.

You said it brother.
You boys better hold on cause i'm gonna have to stand on it!

NEED A 1/2" BONNEY STREAMLINE COMBINATION AND ANY OVER 13/16" TOO!



Andrew Jackson quote: But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing.

Offline Muddy

  • Knows nut from bolt
  • ***********
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 10959
  • Location: Rock, Pa
  • Wrenching To Keep The American Farmer Growing
Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2012, 09:06:12 PM »
Obama likes PVC pipe...

 :))

Ive seen a guy bulid the framing of a calf hutch completly out of schecule 40!  thumbsup2
"And on the 8th day, God looked down on his planned paradise and said, "I need a caretaker." So God made a farmer."

The Garage Gazette

Re: PVC for compressed air
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2012, 09:06:12 PM »